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Terry from Toronto
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:25 pm    Post subject: Pounding in Nasty at Valle De Bravo. Reply with quote #1   
Hey, I was down there 3 weeks ago and my Canadian paisano had a real hard landing .... short at the "piano". Dislocated his shoulder. He was running 4 GoPro videos at the time. If anyone knows this site, there is terrible sink on approach to the "piano" LZ. I think I know what he did wrong but I'd love to hear others' analysis. Check out this video of the accident from multiple angles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bejtejdZq-s&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

Warm winds,
Terry from Toronto
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Wagner24314
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #2   
what is with the flags
plus he flard way to early

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franklingrx
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #3   
If you know you're going to have no energy for the flare... throw the glider ahead... it will save your arms and downtubes... experience says.
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boarini2003
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #4   
Seems to me like he did not pull in enough (or at all) when he hit that sink. He was basically at trim when he should have been flying considerably faster.
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Bobfly
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #5   
It looks to me as if he pushed out to float it over the fence and then didn't pull in again. As he was running out of air speed, he did a small half hearted flare and then pulled it back at about 15 feet. By then he was at or near stall and nothing was going to save it. The last 15 feet or so it looks like he just rode it in hoping for a miracle. That was a nasty impact and I hope he heals quickly. That was some sick sink he hit above the trees which I think made him think the fence was going to be ground zero. I thought he made a good save on the fence but as he cleared it he should have pulled in for the ground skim. Just my thoughts and I'm a h2 dweeb so take it with a grain of salt. Wink
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skyshaddo
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #6   
Sorry, your friend got hurt.
Looks like he had a lot of parasite drag on that glider, Flags, 4 cameras?
I assume he worked up a little-at-a time with all that stuff to learn the how it changed the flight characteristics.

Plus, looks like there is a lot of LZ in front of him...perhaps he could have taken the fence out-of-play with a better approach.

I don't mean to second guess a fellow pilot...more just thinking out loud.

Heal fast, my friend.
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AIRTHUG
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #7   
skyshaddo wrote:
Sorry, your friend got hurt.
Looks like he had a lot of parasite drag on that glider, Flags, 4 cameras?
I assume he worked up a little-at-a time with all that stuff to learn the how it changed the flight characteristics.

Plus, looks like there is a lot of LZ in front of him...perhaps he could have taken the fence out-of-play with a better approach.

I don't mean to second guess a fellow pilot...more just thinking out loud.

Heal fast, my friend.


Ditto

And he started his flare from 20 ft, slow and gradual. By the time the glider stalled he still had a ways to go to get to mother earth.

First chance to avoid this would have been to be further from the fence, as Shadd said. But once that mistake was made, he floated it over the fence, and continued to slow until the glider literally fell out of the sky. Pull in damnit!!! surrender

Also, I'm an advocate of letting go of the DT's just a split second before impact in a landing like that... coming from a guy with a bad (repaired 6 months ago) shoulder...

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Wes
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #8   
AIRTHUG wrote:
skyshaddo wrote:
Sorry, your friend got hurt.
Looks like he had a lot of parasite drag on that glider, Flags, 4 cameras?
I assume he worked up a little-at-a time with all that stuff to learn the how it changed the flight characteristics.

Plus, looks like there is a lot of LZ in front of him...perhaps he could have taken the fence out-of-play with a better approach.

I don't mean to second guess a fellow pilot...more just thinking out loud.

Heal fast, my friend.


Ditto

And he started his flare from 20 ft, slow and gradual. By the time the glider stalled he still had a ways to go to get to mother earth.

First chance to avoid this would have been to be further from the fence, as Shadd said. But once that mistake was made, he floated it over the fence, and continued to slow until the glider literally fell out of the sky. Pull in damnit!!! surrender

Also, I'm an advocate of letting go of the DT's just a split second before impact in a landing like that... coming from a guy with a bad (repaired 6 months ago) shoulder...
Ditto

Ditto
Down tubes are cheep compared to broken arms and its not worth the trade off. We know when we are going to take out a tube. How many of us have really blown a landing and was then surprised that we broke a tube? Hell being honest I just blew a landing this weekend and I was surprised I didnt break anything.
new down tubes = $80.00
Broken arms= could be thousands depending on your situation.

Simple math
The right solution is to get to the point we nail all of out landings all of the time. Still work in progress for me.

Hope he is back in the air soon

Wes
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DBrose
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #9   
more VG more speed...
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HangDiver
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #10   
Take another look... Lot's of twist in the wing. Iit's at least possible if not even likely that the tips were still flying while the pilot was trying to flare/land.
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dayhead
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #11   
While I feel bad for this pilot, I think it's obvious what he did wrong:

1: All red glider.

2: Too many flags.

3: Too many cameras.

While a red glider might fly and land OK, a red glider loaded down with photographic equipment and fluttering flags is just barely airworthy. The video proves this beyond a shadow of doubt.
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franklingrx
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #12   
dayhead wrote:

While a red glider might fly and land OK, a red glider loaded down with photographic equipment and fluttering flags is just barely airworthy. The video proves this beyond a shadow of doubt.


Everybody knows that your L/D goes down significantly more with a Canadian flag than with an Aussie or US flag, but I thought I saw a French flag there too, which is a well known to have the highest induced drag.

Je pars maintenant avant que quelqu'un me met en feu par les flammes.
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sg
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #13   
I would have laid back down semi prone and pulled in early to clear that fence with speed. Then continued with speed into my round out.

This pilot had no round out. Looks like the fence scared him a bit and he pushed out more and slowed down more.

He basically flew straight into the ground semi-mushing with little control and no flare authority.

The real fix would have been much earlier. Go upright later, so you have far more margin above that fence so you could dive in with plenty of speed and a nice long round out which leads to an easily timed flare.

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HGXC
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #14   
Man how many times did I see that guy whack in?

I hurt all over looking at that video.

Dennis

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Windlord
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #15   
franklingrx wrote:
dayhead wrote:

While a red glider might fly and land OK, a red glider loaded down with photographic equipment and fluttering flags is just barely airworthy. The video proves this beyond a shadow of doubt.


Everybody knows that your L/D goes down significantly more with a Canadian flag than with an Aussie or US flag, but I thought I saw a French flag there too, which is a well known to have the highest induced drag.

Je pars maintenant avant que quelqu'un me met en feu par les flammes.

roflcat Need more flags. More flag material, the better. Acts like a second sail
or imitates a PG.
All kidding aside, glad he is ok. Looks as though the shape of the LZ may have caused
a wind shadow in that portion of the plateau, combined with low approach speed.

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Last edited by Windlord on Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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peanuts
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #16   
touching on something else. the problem began with big sink. i've never been to that site, but it appears from the video that the LZ is on a small plateau/hill, and the pilot in question approaches from the down wind side. do you think that perhaps that approach is flying him into rotor/sink/etc., and maybe he might be better served by doing a small patern above the hill/LZ? sometimes it is hard to say when an accident begins.
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Hangskier
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #17   
Possibly landing uphill without sufficient speed.

Shocked
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fly,surf,&ski
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #18   
IMO this whole incident can be attributed to the landing approach, or the lack of one.....

If he would have saved enough altitude to get upwind of the field and do a proper downwind, base, and final he would not have come up short. Poor planning (not to say I've never had to abandon a proper DBF approach for a figure 8/s turn approach to make a landable LZ Mr. Green) should be blamed more than unexpected sink. A proper DBF landing approach allows for adjustments due to sudden lift or sink...

I used to tell my students that a bad approach will almost always lead to a bad landing, and visa versa.....


Just my $.02 popcorn

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Last edited by fly,surf,&ski on Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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sg
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #19   
^^^ agree. To clarify, my advice is really recovery advice from AFTER the approach error was made.
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franklingrx
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #20   
sg wrote:
^^^ agree. To clarify, my advice is really recovery advice from AFTER the approach error was made.


I cannot say enough about the technique I have used with near 100% success rate.

After you've made all the wrong decisions, and you know a flare is not possible... just before touchdown, with all you've got in your arms, throw your glider as hard as possible forward using the downtubes... (let go)

In effect, this is an emergency flare of sorts, and the outcome is almost always a pancake with you on the ground, and your glider sitting on its basetube and keel. If you have wheels, it may roll a foot or so, if not, your body is dragging before the basetube hits, so it is unlikely you'll swing through. When you do this, your CG moves way aft, the glider's nose goes up and you drop on your belly instead of your feet.

Embarrassingly, I 've used this technique a little too often, but, knock wood, haven't lost a downtube (or arm) yet.
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