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Terry from Toronto
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Joined: 04 Apr 2008
Posts: 195
Location: Toronto, Canada
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 Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:25 pm Post subject: Pounding in Nasty at Valle De Bravo. |
 #1 |
Hey, I was down there 3 weeks ago and my Canadian paisano had a real hard landing .... short at the "piano". Dislocated his shoulder. He was running 4 GoPro videos at the time. If anyone knows this site, there is terrible sink on approach to the "piano" LZ. I think I know what he did wrong but I'd love to hear others' analysis. Check out this video of the accident from multiple angles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bejtejdZq-s&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
Warm winds,
Terry from Toronto |
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Wagner24314
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Joined: 09 May 2007
Posts: 2046
Location: Yankton SD
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:51 pm Post subject: |
#2 |
what is with the flags
plus he flard way to early
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franklingrx
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Joined: 06 Sep 2007
Posts: 394
Location: Maui/Florida
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:54 pm Post subject: |
#3 |
| If you know you're going to have no energy for the flare... throw the glider ahead... it will save your arms and downtubes... experience says. |
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boarini2003
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Joined: 06 Feb 2007
Posts: 1395
Location: Miami
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:57 pm Post subject: |
#4 |
Seems to me like he did not pull in enough (or at all) when he hit that sink. He was basically at trim when he should have been flying considerably faster.
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Bobfly
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Joined: 13 Nov 2009
Posts: 3699
Location: San Diego, Ca.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:58 pm Post subject: |
#5 |
It looks to me as if he pushed out to float it over the fence and then didn't pull in again. As he was running out of air speed, he did a small half hearted flare and then pulled it back at about 15 feet. By then he was at or near stall and nothing was going to save it. The last 15 feet or so it looks like he just rode it in hoping for a miracle. That was a nasty impact and I hope he heals quickly. That was some sick sink he hit above the trees which I think made him think the fence was going to be ground zero. I thought he made a good save on the fence but as he cleared it he should have pulled in for the ground skim. Just my thoughts and I'm a h2 dweeb so take it with a grain of salt. 
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skyshaddo
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Joined: 24 Feb 2010
Posts: 437
Location: Point of the Mountain Ut.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:36 pm Post subject: |
#6 |
Sorry, your friend got hurt.
Looks like he had a lot of parasite drag on that glider, Flags, 4 cameras?
I assume he worked up a little-at-a time with all that stuff to learn the how it changed the flight characteristics.
Plus, looks like there is a lot of LZ in front of him...perhaps he could have taken the fence out-of-play with a better approach.
I don't mean to second guess a fellow pilot...more just thinking out loud.
Heal fast, my friend. |
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AIRTHUG
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Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 6159
Location: Point of the Mountain, Draper, UT
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:03 pm Post subject: |
#7 |
| skyshaddo wrote: |
Sorry, your friend got hurt.
Looks like he had a lot of parasite drag on that glider, Flags, 4 cameras?
I assume he worked up a little-at-a time with all that stuff to learn the how it changed the flight characteristics.
Plus, looks like there is a lot of LZ in front of him...perhaps he could have taken the fence out-of-play with a better approach.
I don't mean to second guess a fellow pilot...more just thinking out loud.
Heal fast, my friend. |
And he started his flare from 20 ft, slow and gradual. By the time the glider stalled he still had a ways to go to get to mother earth.
First chance to avoid this would have been to be further from the fence, as Shadd said. But once that mistake was made, he floated it over the fence, and continued to slow until the glider literally fell out of the sky. Pull in damnit!!! 
Also, I'm an advocate of letting go of the DT's just a split second before impact in a landing like that... coming from a guy with a bad (repaired 6 months ago) shoulder...
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Wes
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Joined: 19 Mar 2009
Posts: 257
Location: Salt Lake City
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:20 pm Post subject: |
#8 |
| AIRTHUG wrote: |
| skyshaddo wrote: |
Sorry, your friend got hurt.
Looks like he had a lot of parasite drag on that glider, Flags, 4 cameras?
I assume he worked up a little-at-a time with all that stuff to learn the how it changed the flight characteristics.
Plus, looks like there is a lot of LZ in front of him...perhaps he could have taken the fence out-of-play with a better approach.
I don't mean to second guess a fellow pilot...more just thinking out loud.
Heal fast, my friend. |
And he started his flare from 20 ft, slow and gradual. By the time the glider stalled he still had a ways to go to get to mother earth.
First chance to avoid this would have been to be further from the fence, as Shadd said. But once that mistake was made, he floated it over the fence, and continued to slow until the glider literally fell out of the sky. Pull in damnit!!!
Also, I'm an advocate of letting go of the DT's just a split second before impact in a landing like that... coming from a guy with a bad (repaired 6 months ago) shoulder... |
Down tubes are cheep compared to broken arms and its not worth the trade off. We know when we are going to take out a tube. How many of us have really blown a landing and was then surprised that we broke a tube? Hell being honest I just blew a landing this weekend and I was surprised I didnt break anything.
new down tubes = $80.00
Broken arms= could be thousands depending on your situation.
Simple math
The right solution is to get to the point we nail all of out landings all of the time. Still work in progress for me.
Hope he is back in the air soon
Wes |
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DBrose
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Joined: 16 Jan 2007
Posts: 732
Location: Humboldt
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:13 pm Post subject: |
#9 |
more VG more speed...
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HangDiver
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Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 2075
Location: Salida, Villa Grove, Colorado
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:18 pm Post subject: |
#10 |
Take another look... Lot's of twist in the wing. Iit's at least possible if not even likely that the tips were still flying while the pilot was trying to flare/land.
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dayhead
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Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 557
Location: Crestline California
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:26 pm Post subject: |
#11 |
While I feel bad for this pilot, I think it's obvious what he did wrong:
1: All red glider.
2: Too many flags.
3: Too many cameras.
While a red glider might fly and land OK, a red glider loaded down with photographic equipment and fluttering flags is just barely airworthy. The video proves this beyond a shadow of doubt. |
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franklingrx
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Joined: 06 Sep 2007
Posts: 394
Location: Maui/Florida
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:19 pm Post subject: |
#12 |
| dayhead wrote: |
While a red glider might fly and land OK, a red glider loaded down with photographic equipment and fluttering flags is just barely airworthy. The video proves this beyond a shadow of doubt. |
Everybody knows that your L/D goes down significantly more with a Canadian flag than with an Aussie or US flag, but I thought I saw a French flag there too, which is a well known to have the highest induced drag.
Je pars maintenant avant que quelqu'un me met en feu par les flammes. |
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sg
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Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:07 am Post subject: |
#13 |
I would have laid back down semi prone and pulled in early to clear that fence with speed. Then continued with speed into my round out.
This pilot had no round out. Looks like the fence scared him a bit and he pushed out more and slowed down more.
He basically flew straight into the ground semi-mushing with little control and no flare authority.
The real fix would have been much earlier. Go upright later, so you have far more margin above that fence so you could dive in with plenty of speed and a nice long round out which leads to an easily timed flare.
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HGXC
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Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 2921
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:50 am Post subject: |
#14 |
Man how many times did I see that guy whack in?
I hurt all over looking at that video.
Dennis
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Windlord
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Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 4709
Location: Montana
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:20 am Post subject: |
#15 |
| franklingrx wrote: |
| dayhead wrote: |
While a red glider might fly and land OK, a red glider loaded down with photographic equipment and fluttering flags is just barely airworthy. The video proves this beyond a shadow of doubt. |
Everybody knows that your L/D goes down significantly more with a Canadian flag than with an Aussie or US flag, but I thought I saw a French flag there too, which is a well known to have the highest induced drag.
Je pars maintenant avant que quelqu'un me met en feu par les flammes. |
 Need more flags. More flag material, the better. Acts like a second sail
or imitates a PG.
All kidding aside, glad he is ok. Looks as though the shape of the LZ may have caused
a wind shadow in that portion of the plateau, combined with low approach speed.
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Last edited by Windlord on Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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peanuts
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Joined: 08 Jul 2008
Posts: 1880
Location: virginia
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:43 am Post subject: |
#16 |
| touching on something else. the problem began with big sink. i've never been to that site, but it appears from the video that the LZ is on a small plateau/hill, and the pilot in question approaches from the down wind side. do you think that perhaps that approach is flying him into rotor/sink/etc., and maybe he might be better served by doing a small patern above the hill/LZ? sometimes it is hard to say when an accident begins. |
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Hangskier
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Joined: 10 Jan 2011
Posts: 852
Location: Eastern NC, USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:06 am Post subject: |
#17 |
Possibly landing uphill without sufficient speed.
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fly,surf,&ski
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Joined: 12 Jun 2009
Posts: 1093
Location: Torrey Pines
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:14 am Post subject: |
#18 |
IMO this whole incident can be attributed to the landing approach, or the lack of one.....
If he would have saved enough altitude to get upwind of the field and do a proper downwind, base, and final he would not have come up short. Poor planning (not to say I've never had to abandon a proper DBF approach for a figure 8/s turn approach to make a landable LZ  ) should be blamed more than unexpected sink. A proper DBF landing approach allows for adjustments due to sudden lift or sink...
I used to tell my students that a bad approach will almost always lead to a bad landing, and visa versa.....
Just my $.02 
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Last edited by fly,surf,&ski on Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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sg
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Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:17 am Post subject: |
#19 |
^^^ agree. To clarify, my advice is really recovery advice from AFTER the approach error was made.
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| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
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franklingrx
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Joined: 06 Sep 2007
Posts: 394
Location: Maui/Florida
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:32 am Post subject: |
#20 |
| sg wrote: |
| ^^^ agree. To clarify, my advice is really recovery advice from AFTER the approach error was made. |
I cannot say enough about the technique I have used with near 100% success rate.
After you've made all the wrong decisions, and you know a flare is not possible... just before touchdown, with all you've got in your arms, throw your glider as hard as possible forward using the downtubes... (let go)
In effect, this is an emergency flare of sorts, and the outcome is almost always a pancake with you on the ground, and your glider sitting on its basetube and keel. If you have wheels, it may roll a foot or so, if not, your body is dragging before the basetube hits, so it is unlikely you'll swing through. When you do this, your CG moves way aft, the glider's nose goes up and you drop on your belly instead of your feet.
Embarrassingly, I 've used this technique a little too often, but, knock wood, haven't lost a downtube (or arm) yet. |
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