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Andrew
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:03 pm    Post subject: Nuances of kingposted hang points Reply with quote #1   
Hello group!

I am looking for online info about the nuances of hanging from the kingpost (as opposed to keel based hang points).

Something that will help me determine the best length AND the best point between nose and tail to hang from. Also proper flair technique and trouble shooting "symptoms" of improper hang point.

Thanks

Andrew
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klh
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #2   
:)

Last edited by klh on Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Flyingseb
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #3   
...
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Last edited by Flyingseb on Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Andrew
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #4   
This is a funny question?

Trying to troubleshoot my first "king posted hang strap" glider so I don't wreck it is a funny question?

Andrew
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shsims
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #5   
I'm also thinking of going kingpost hang on my glider and am interested to know if there are some things that I don't know that I don't know. What I have been told on my glider (an Eclipse 17) to expect is significantly less pitch pressure and a little more roll sensitivity.

I think the responses so far might be because this is a major change...one of those things that if you have to ask, you shouldn't be messing with it yourself. It seems like it would be very easy to set the wrong trim and have a real problem on your hands.
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aeroexperiments
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Nuances of kingposted hang points Reply with quote #6   
I don't want to give much advice about modifying a glider.... If your glider is already set up for kingpost hang then it shouldn't fly a whole lot different from keel hang point. It just gives you a little more control power, which is welcome in double-surface wings with long span. No difference in flair technique. I guess you'll notice more power to rotate the nose up but I don't know how this would make any practical difference in flair technique, the flare timing really shouldn't change unless you also have trimmed for a different airspeed than you had before. Most pilots prefer to hang as near the base bar as possible, like maybe one fist above the base bar.

If your glider is already set up with kingpost hang then there will be several possible positions (either by moving the king post or by moving the bolt that secures the hang strap.) Start near the middle-- or if you are heavy start further forward or if light start further aft-- same ideas as with keel hang.

Checking the trim speed is the same as with keel hang. Do you know how to check for min sink speed by watching telltales mounted on the top of the sail? If you want to trim for min sink in wings-level flight then these telltales should be just starting to reverse at trim. Trim being the weight of your hands on the bar but no muscle force. If you prefer to trim faster (or slower), modify accordingly....

This is all pretty standard stuff. Maybe I am missing some part of your drift....

If you are trying to modify a glider for kingpost hang and want to know how high to drill the hole, I don't know what to tell you, copy some other glider? You'd want the hang point to be vertically above your old keel hang point when the glider is in a "normal" pitch attitude, but I can't tell you how to estimate a "normal" pitch attitude, except by propping up the glider and raising or lowering the back as you hang from the keel till the bar ends up in the same place as it is in flight, that should be a normal pitch attitude. Maybe much better to ask someone else who has done the same mod on the same glider? How often is this sort of mod ever done in actual practice, if the glider wasn't designed for kingpost hang from the start?

It seems there will be a real possibility the kingpost simply won't be in the right place (fore-and-aft) to allow successful modification to kingpost hang unless you know this has been done successfully with this glider--

Steve

Andrew wrote:
Hello group!

I am looking for online info about the nuances of hanging from the kingpost (as opposed to keel based hang points).

Something that will help me determine the best length AND the best point between nose and tail to hang from. Also proper flair technique and trouble shooting "symptoms" of improper hang point.

Thanks

Andrew
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Andrew
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #7   
Thanks for the replies.

No, I am not trying to modify my hang glider. Rather, I have purchased a new one. My old one was a Falcon 195. The new one is a single surface as well, but it has much better performance and has a hang strap on the king post.

I am not sure the new wing HAS telltales on the upper surface, but it shouldn't be difficult to tape some wool up there.

I have a few concerns, flairing is only one, but it might be affected by the others.

>I may be hanging a little too far back, although the glider seems to fly fine at trim, I can even push out quite a bit. (Reach is different).

>I think the hang strap is too long, I can still fly the thing because control bar is so far ahead. My chute just brushes past the control bar when I do a hang check. (I only had 1.5 inch clearance on my Falcon and loved it there).

>The control frame seems MUCH larger than I am used to so my grip for flair is wider, so I do not have the same "reach" as I am used to when flairing up OR out.

>The control bar is un-naturally far from me at trim (or any speed for that matter).

A new glider will always take some getting used to, but I would like to set it up PROPERLY first, THEN get used to it. I was wondering if there must be several articles written on these topics, individually or in combination, somewhere on the internet.

In any case, I'll discuss the problem with some pilots in my area who should be able to offer some good advice.

Thanks again,

Andrew
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aeroexperiments
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #8   
My personal preference is to trim for close to min sink-- checking with tufts-- which normally (at least on the gliders I've owned) is also about as slow as the glider can comfortably fly without starting to suffer from poor roll control. Paying attention to soaring performance in light ridge lift is another way to judge whether or not the glider is trimmed for min. sink. I don't set my trim point with landing in mind, but I do feel like trimming any faster would just mean I have to bleed off more speed after reaching trim, before flaring. I have hard time imagining solving any other problems by trimming for something other than min. sink. But, there probably are other ideas on this out there.... in fact plenty of pilots trim so that they have to push out a little to be at min sink wings-level... Anyway I've never had the sense that anything about flaring or bar position was different on my kingpost hang gliders than my gliders with keel hang.... but I've heard the bar is quite far forward on some particular gliders at normal trim configurations....

Vertical clearance may ultimately have to be checked in flight, the bar may push up some in the middle on the ground so the apparent clearance is less than in flight-- this happens on my Laminar-- plus if you are not hanging at the same angle (because feet can't clear the ground) this changes things....

Good luck...

Steve


Andrew wrote:
Thanks for the replies.

No, I am not trying to modify my hang glider. Rather, I have purchased a new one. My old one was a Falcon 195. The new one is a single surface as well, but it has much better performance and has a hang strap on the king post.

I am not sure the new wing HAS telltales on the upper surface, but it shouldn't be difficult to tape some wool up there.

I have a few concerns, flairing is only one, but it might be affected by the others.

>I may be hanging a little too far back, although the glider seems to fly fine at trim, I can even push out quite a bit. (Reach is different).

>I think the hang strap is too long, I can still fly the thing because control bar is so far ahead. My chute just brushes past the control bar when I do a hang check. (I only had 1.5 inch clearance on my Falcon and loved it there).

>The control frame seems MUCH larger than I am used to so my grip for flair is wider, so I do not have the same "reach" as I am used to when flairing up OR out.

>The control bar is un-naturally far from me at trim (or any speed for that matter).

A new glider will always take some getting used to, but I would like to set it up PROPERLY first, THEN get used to it. I was wondering if there must be several articles written on these topics, individually or in combination, somewhere on the internet.

In any case, I'll discuss the problem with some pilots in my area who should be able to offer some good advice.

Thanks again,

Andrew
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Dawson
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #9   
Andrew wrote:

No, I am not trying to modify my hang glider. Rather, I have purchased a new one. My old one was a Falcon 195. The new one is a single surface as well, but it has much better performance and has a hang strap on the king post.

Andrew,

it might make it a tad easier to help if you tell us what kind of glider it is, i.e., make and model?

My first glider was a Pacific Windcraft Vision which had Kingpost hang, though I suspect this was a modification by a previous owner.

Dawson

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Andrew
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #10   
Thanks for all the advice.

I have moved on to a Freedom 190 from 9 years flying a Falcon 195.
I weigh 200lbs in my street cloths.
Harness is 25 lbs. Glider bag/pads weighs 7 lbs.
i usually take 1.5 liters of water.
Overall I'd say hook in weight is about 235-240 lbs.

Kingpost has been set to the second to last position, it can go only one more position towards the tail, or two more towards the nose (there are 4 positions), and the hang strap is connected to the king post.

I have flown the glider 3 times, total airtime so far about 30 minutes.
I would not say it flies too fast, nor would I say it flies too slow, but rather the position of the control bar is way out front compared to what I am used to. At trim it does not seem to fly fast, but I can push out quite a bit more than I would on my Falcon and it still seems to fly well.
I'd have to attach my anemometer to determine what speed it is flying at trim.

The fact the glider flies with the control so far forward and add a hang strap that is a bit too long might be causing me my problems flairing for landing.

Today a buddy helped out and we shortened the hang strap. I expect it should help quite a bit.
I'm now hanging about a fist over the control bar (chest mounted chute). I think I mentioned that my chute was just brushing the bar when I did a hang check.

As for my hang point.... I think I'll end up at either the second or the third position. Currently I am at the third position, but based on what the recommended weight range for this glider is, I may find the second position better. We'll have to experiment there a bit.

Are there any other freedom 190 pilots, who are about my weight and would like to comment on how and where they hang from?

Andrew
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flyingbrian
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #11   
Most king-post-hang-point style gilders have adjustment holes. Other than that, it works pretty much the same. I've liked my king-post-style gliders because the adjustment stays "bolted in place" once you get it where you want it.
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