Will two orgs help hang gliding? - Hang Gliding Org - Worlds largest Hang Gliding community, discover Hang Gliding

Search

  • Sorry...You must register to activate searching









Post new topic   Reply to topic    Hang Gliding Org Forum Index -> Hang gliding general->Will two orgs help hang gliding?
BURY this topic
View previous topic :: View next topic  
old newbie
2 thumbs up
2 thumbs up


Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 1018

PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:22 am    Post subject: Will two orgs help hang gliding? Reply with quote #1   
A new topic since this was considered off topic even though a large pecantage off the post were about naming and other issues not founding members.

How will having two orgs doing basically the same thing (well one won't include paragliding ) help hang gliding?

Well at least you seem to be concentrating on what is most important, the name since that seems to be what really caused more pilots to be upset about the national org. If this org is going to be serving the same purpose as what we currently have; insurance, ratings, site insurance. I see it doing nothing but creating complication and division.
How about taking a different role and promoting instruction, flying and leadership. Use the energy to come up with plans that will help the sport and use your clout to get USHPA to act on them. Apathy is the biggest problem use the new org as an place for those that feel frustrated working with USHPA (or don't want to or have not) to step up and work on change. Keep the org inclusive not devisive. Use the new org as a think tank and conduit for volunteering and helping pilots and instructors.

Steve Forslund
Send private message  Rate this post
sg
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11113

PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:31 am    Post subject: Re: Will two orgs help hang gliding? Reply with quote #2   
old newbie wrote:
A new topic since this was considered off topic even though a large pecantage off the post were about naming and other issues not founding members.

How will having two orgs doing basically the same thing (well one won't include paragliding ) help hang gliding?


Nothing is set in stone.... but if the new org is set up to be a virtual umbrella org with specific sub-orgs, it could easily include paragliding as well as other forms of flight. So its inaccurate to say one wont include paragliding... thats yet to be seen.

Quote:

Well at least you seem to be concentrating on what is most important, the name since that seems to be what really caused more pilots to be upset about the national org. If this org is going to be serving the same purpose as what we currently have; insurance, ratings, site insurance. I see it doing nothing but creating complication and division.


Well, thats your opinion. Logically, it seems having two orgs promoting the same thing can only help, gives pilot choices, and spawns innovation. Cant see how anyone could argue against choice.

Quote:

How about taking a different role and promoting instruction, flying and leadership. Use the energy to come up with plans that will help the sport and use your clout to get USHPA to act on them. Apathy is the biggest problem use the new org as an place for those that feel frustrated working with USHPA (or don't want to or have not) to step up and work on change. Keep the org inclusive not devisive. Use the new org as a think tank and conduit for volunteering and helping pilots and instructors.


Working with ushpa is next to impossible. How many hours have you spent trying to work with ushpa? What has your personal experience been or are you simply guessing this is realistic? Too many people here have had bad experiences and burned a LOT of time taking that approach. There is a long history of them not listening to the membership. Some people rather spend their energy doing something positive that can have a real effect instead of wasting more time. Devisive is the ushpa us and them mentality. Hopefully, a new org will have an US mentality.

_________________

H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142

Thomas Jefferson wrote:
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
Send private message Blog  Rate this post
SeeMarkFly
2 thumbs up
2 thumbs up


Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 1718
Location: Lakeview Oregon

PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:31 am    Post subject: Re: Will two orgs help hang gliding? Reply with quote #3   
old newbie wrote:
what is most important, the name since that seems to be what really caused more pilots to be upset about the national org.
That is WHEN I quit.
That is not WHY I quit.
I quit because I sent my hard earned money to the USHGA and they stole that money and spent it on the USHpA.
They lost focus, then they lost me.

<edit> dyslexic (I hop that's laa).

_________________
Mark Webber
225 Falcon (I can land this one)
163 Super Sport (I can't land this one)
KG6HOT

complacency about complacency is probably the enemy.


Last edited by SeeMarkFly on Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:28 am; edited 1 time in total
Send private message  Rate this post
FPeel
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 28 Aug 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: San Jose, CA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:18 am    Post subject: Re: Will two orgs help hang gliding? Reply with quote #4   
old newbie wrote:
Well at least you seem to be concentrating on what is most important, the name since that seems to be what really caused more pilots to be upset about the national org.

Steve, you are sadly mistaken if you think the name change is the center of angst with the current organization. Allow me to offer a little clarification. The name change, the logo bait and switch, the waiver or a host of other issues that have arisen over the years aren't the real problem. It was the heavy handed way they were ramrodded through in spite of membership complaints to the contrary. That there was a known good old boys club made up of industry insiders directing affairs from the backroom only served to make the whole thing all the less palatable. You are correct that apathy is the biggest problem. Care to venture a guess as to why it is so rampant? Why it is that members simply don't care?

If the association is a business, as has been claimed, it is run as no business should. There's an old adage that says "either take care of your customers or someone else will." Apparently a group of long time members feel they aren't getting proper care. If the association is instead a club, certain people members will expect the opportunity to provide more input than simply one vote and their dues. That opportunity is not available.

Before anyone starts passing out the Kool-Aid of "get involved, go to a BoD meeting", stop before you start. I have been involved up to my eyeballs and the result was lies, manipulation and misrepresentation. This was the extent of leadership that came from the very top of the organization. Others have reported similar experiences. As a hard headed SOB I've learned to accept certain lumps in life, but this goes far beyond that. It's elitist and exclusionary.

Why would I feel the least bit of loyalty to a company or organization that has openly treated it's customers or members with disrespect and disdain? In light of past experience my business is available to whomever is offering the best product. I'm willing to vote with my feet and my wallet.

That said, I agree with your sentiment, though I would use the new group as a hammer to force change. Being nice doesn't work.

_________________
"If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space." - Anonymous
Send private message  Rate this post
AIRTHUG
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 6168

PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:26 am    Post subject: Re: Will two orgs help hang gliding? Reply with quote #5   
old newbie wrote:
If this org is going to be serving the same purpose as what we currently have; insurance, ratings, site insurance. I see it doing nothing but creating complication and division.


I'm all for choice, but Steve has a point- there are times when having a large member base gives leverage or negotiating power... I'd imagine we wouldn't have the insurance we have now, and definitely not as cheap as it is now, with half as many members.

Is there a plan on how to deal with this loss of leverage?

Offering more, at a cheaper price, sounds great... but I'm skeptical if it can be accomplished, especially with less members to split the costs...

_________________
(trashing the entire site in a sig after you leave..... poor form )
Send private message  Rate this post
Windlord
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 5299
Location: Montana

PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #6   
Competition is a good thing. A monopoly is absurd.
_________________
H-4 (1976) UP Saturn 147 & UP Axis 13
The Cloudbase Foundation
Learn to fly hang gliders (click here}
Torrey Hawks #208
Send private message  Rate this post
sg
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11113

PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #7   
Insurance premium rates miss the point.

Pilots want a LOW yearly fee and good customer service. The fee is made up of insurance premium + org overhead.

A new, "google efficient", minimum-overhead org, could potentially offer a lower yearly rate even WITH a higher insurance premium. Ushpa takes in a substantial amount of $$$ to pay some fulltime employees plus expenses to run an actual office. A virtual org would cut that all out and experience huge savings.

But the important point is, you will never know if you never try.

This is an experiment. Have no idea how it will turn out.... but the potential is worth rolling the dice. It will take many years to get traction.

_________________

H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142

Thomas Jefferson wrote:
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
Send private message Blog  Rate this post
knumbknuts
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 5031
Location: Carlsbad, CA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #8   
Everything SG said plus:

lead, follow, or get out of the way.

USHPA is obstructing growth in the sport by being the only national organization for it and doing close to nothing to promote it.

The national disc golf association works hard to promote their sport.
Send private message Blog  Rate this post
old newbie
2 thumbs up
2 thumbs up


Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 1018

PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #9   
Frank WILL IT HELP HANG GLIDING?

Quote:
Care to venture a guess as to why it is so rampant? Why it is that members simply don't care?
Sure the main reason is human nature . It is always just a few doing the work but yes many have been frustrated and no longer feel it is worth it.

And no I did not think the name change is the only reason, of course it was one of the only things to actually get members to care enough to do anything and it seems a lot of effort being spent on the name of the proposed new org.

Steve Forslund
Send private message  Rate this post
SeeMarkFly
2 thumbs up
2 thumbs up


Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 1718
Location: Lakeview Oregon

PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #10   
old newbie wrote:
it seems a lot of effort being spent on the name of the proposed new org.
Fumny, I don't see a LOT of effort.
We're just talking about it. My keyboard is pretty easy to use, how about yours?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=190410#190410
SeeMarkFly wrote:
I really don't care what you call it as long as the focus is on hang gliding.

_________________
Mark Webber
225 Falcon (I can land this one)
163 Super Sport (I can't land this one)
KG6HOT

complacency about complacency is probably the enemy.
Send private message  Rate this post
FPeel
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 28 Aug 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: San Jose, CA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #11   
old newbie wrote:
Frank WILL IT HELP HANG GLIDING?

The same can be asked about the current association, Steve. Given the trends, they're not doing so great a job, are they? Maybe it's time to try a new approach.

_________________
"If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space." - Anonymous
Send private message  Rate this post
sg
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11113

PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #12   
I think Frank makes a good implied??? point.... when an org rams things through and ignores the membership, it CAUSES Apathy.

A new org, that frequently calls for simple membership votes on everything, could potentially change this and get more people involved.
Id rather try and completely fail, then never give it a shot. good idea

_________________

H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142

Thomas Jefferson wrote:
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
Send private message Blog  Rating: 3 thumbs up
AIRTHUG
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 6168

PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #13   
sg wrote:

A new, "google efficient", minimum-overhead org, could potentially offer a lower yearly rate even WITH a higher insurance premium. Ushpa takes in a substantial amount of $$$ to pay some fulltime employees plus expenses to run an actual office. A virtual org would cut that all out and experience huge savings.


You know what they say about things sounding too good to be true...

and FYI, USHPA doesn't have an office full of employees... I think there's like 5 or 6... and they OWN the building, and rent it most of it to other businesses... so what you see as overhead is actually working to offset overhead (that's why they purchased the building in the fist place)

Regardless, I just wanted to make sure the thought that you'll have, at best, half of USHPA's numbers had come into discussion yet...

_________________
(trashing the entire site in a sig after you leave..... poor form )
Send private message  Rate this post
sg
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11113

PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #14   
flyhigh013 wrote:
sg wrote:

A new, "google efficient", minimum-overhead org, could potentially offer a lower yearly rate even WITH a higher insurance premium. Ushpa takes in a substantial amount of $$$ to pay some fulltime employees plus expenses to run an actual office. A virtual org would cut that all out and experience huge savings.


You know what they say about things sounding too good to be true...

and FYI, USHPA doesn't have an office full of employees... I think there's like 5 or 6...


Ummmm... .didnt I just say: "some fulltime employees plus expenses to run an actual office". How is that incompatible with what you said? I never said they had an office FULL of employees.

Quote:

and they OWN the building, and rent it most of it to other businesses... so what you see as overhead is actually working to offset overhead (that's why they purchased the building in the fist place)


And I didnt even mention the building either.... I mentioned it costs money to run an office, and it does.

Hmmmm 5-6 employees? Wow... are these people full time? Because even at minimum wage, thats a lot of money that could be used towards paying insurance Mr. Green

_________________

H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142

Thomas Jefferson wrote:
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
Send private message Blog  Rating: 3 thumbs up
Wingspan34
2 thumbs up
2 thumbs up


Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 5631
Location: Central NY

PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #15   
The problem with the USHPA is not what it does right, it's what it does wrong. It's a non profit, member owned corporation that defies the wishes and interests of it's members. WTF!

It began with members having to sign waivers to join. That wasn't a big deal to me, but it was to a number of members. I know a few personally who quit flying as a result. Then, to prop up the USHGA's finances, the BoD (EC) decided to bring in and cradle PGs. They could have worked, instead toward active promotion of hang gliding, but that was too simple. Now, with the aid of the USHGA, PGers are out numbering hang glider pilots and our Nat Org is no longer "ours".

Primarily, our one time hang gliding focused magazine is now a medium for selling PG equipment and promoting that sport. Every month hang gliding focused pilots have to sort the wheat from the chaff (often not worth it!).

Also, the PG faction pushed a name change for the magazine (and the Association) and now plasters itself on the cover every other month. Odd how single surface gliders and rigid wings don't get their own dedicated month covers (or their names on the cover). I, for one, was less annoyed when we were all just "hang gliders" in the US Hang Gliding Association.

Then there was the Logo contest. What a membership PR horror story! After that the Torrey situation gained attention due to BobK's efforts and the USHPA's (EC) response to his requests for assistance - even after gaining his RD seat - was infuriating.

So, the current US "association" is run to promote the strongest runner (PGing). It is directed by an elitist, arrogant Executive Committee that essentially runs OUR association with some advice (twice a year) from our elected Regional Directors. Members have no effective way of registering their interests - in an association that they themselves (we) supposedly own.

So, my fundamental problem with the USHPA is that it does not represent my and many other pilot's best interests. It has set itself above and apart from the membership, who's funds allow the association to exist. The direction that the EC is taking us is not, and has not been, the direction that I see as best. And from what I read here, there are many other hang glider pilots who feel the same on one or more of these points.

As things now stand the USHPA (mainly the Executive Committee) is a great fit with pilots who have no interest or concern for the direction of their Nation Organization. It's a perfect fit for pilots who want to pay a fee, get a rating (or rating card), look at a glossy mag once a month, and have the damage caused by their rare third party involved accidents covered by some insurance. As long as you're happy with that, the USHPA's Executive Committee is happy with YOU! thumbsup mosh . . . . Neutral

If you prefer a membership owned and run organization that actually works in the best interests of its members (in this case hang glider pilots), and if all goes well actually listens and responds to member interests, then this proposed new organization could be for you. good idea mosh thumbsup Yay welcome cheer

It's all about having a choice!

_________________
WW 141 Fusion SP
Master rated, First flight - May 1975
FL, PL, PA, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TURB, X-C
Send private message Blog  Rating: 3 thumbs up
remmoore
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1704

PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #16   
FPeel wrote:
old newbie wrote:
Frank WILL IT HELP HANG GLIDING?

The same can be asked about the current association, Steve. Given the trends, they're not doing so great a job, are they? Maybe it's time to try a new approach.


Mark Forger, a USHPA inside guy if there ever was one, recently confirmed in this forum that USHPA isn't prioritzing HG, but free-flight in general. Maybe back in the day HG was high in priorites, but USHPA management seems to think there's better uses of their time and our money.

RM
Send private message  Rate this post
bobk
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1842
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:52 am    Post subject: Re: Will two orgs help hang gliding? Reply with quote #17   
flyhigh013 wrote:
I'm all for choice, but Steve has a point- there are times when having a large member base gives leverage or negotiating power... I'd imagine we wouldn't have the insurance we have now, and definitely not as cheap as it is now, with half as many members.

Is there a plan on how to deal with this loss of leverage?

How about this one...

Would USHPA like to pool its buying power with the new organization to purchase a policy that covers members of both organizations? I'll bet our new organization would approve that cost sharing measure. Will USHPA?

Ask your Dad to run that up the flagpole at USHPA and let us know how well it's received. That will tell us who really cares about cost savings for our members and who cares about retaining power.

Go ahead Ryan. Let's do that experiment.

_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders Join the Torrey Hawks Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs
Send private message Blog  Rating: 3 thumbs up
FPeel
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 28 Aug 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: San Jose, CA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #18   
remmoore wrote:
FPeel wrote:
old newbie wrote:
Frank WILL IT HELP HANG GLIDING?

The same can be asked about the current association, Steve. Given the trends, they're not doing so great a job, are they? Maybe it's time to try a new approach.


Mark Forger, a USHPA inside guy if there ever was one, recently confirmed in this forum that USHPA isn't prioritzing HG, but free-flight in general. Maybe back in the day HG was high in priorites, but USHPA management seems to think there's better uses of their time and our money.

RM

To extend the question, how will that help hang gliding?

Promoting free-flying in general is only part of the job. I venture that those efforts provide little more than nominal help in adding to or even maintaining the current number of hang glider pilots. That's because general awareness is only part of the job.

Here's a real world example, I sell network security products. My company publishes technical papers, gives presentations, and involves itself in a variety of endeavors intended to promote better network security at all levels. Up to a point what is good for the industry is good for us and increasing the number of potential buyers also increases our pool of potential customers. But unless we ALSO focus specifically on selling our products we will go out of business.

So the old association promoting "free-flight in general" means they are doing an incomplete job and certainly not the job intended. Thus, the the door for creating a group whose sole focus is promoting hang gliding has opened even further. This is the greatest opportunity for a new association and how they should, at least initially, align themselves with the current one.

Leverage the existing org for what it's worth (insurance and infrastructure), fill in the gaps that currently exist (promotion of HG), then as resources allow provide new services. Keep adding essential services until the new association is self sufficient. This minimizes the growing pains, provides time to create a superior operation and lessens the chance, and impact, of failure. Doing one or two things extremely well would immediately elevate the new entity above the old.

What may also occur is the umbrella hierarchy discussed in another thread may come into being on its own with the existing association accepting the new one as an active part of the machine. If enough pilots signed on with the new org it would be in a position to lobby the old one for changes its mutual members want.

Personally, this would be the best of all worlds. A new entity focused on the right programs and efforts to promote hang gliding aligned (and helping to steer) the old one that already offers the basic services many pilots need in order to fly.

WILL IT HELP HANG GLIDING? You tell me.

_________________
"If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space." - Anonymous
Send private message  Rate this post
blindrodie
2 thumbs up
2 thumbs up


Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 4369
Location: Roeland Park, KS

PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #19   
Quote:
Id rather try and completely fail, then never give it a shot.


This is what hits home for me! Period... Cool

It IS worth a try.

_________________
"Tow me up. I'll find my way down"

Kansas City Hang Glider Supplies
Guggenmos E7
WW U2 145
WW F1 195 (SOLD)
FlyTec 6015
CG 1000
Tracer Plus
Organ Donor
Torrey Hawk #212
Send private message  Rate this post
Frontman
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 213
Location: Bay Area Cali

PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #20   
I'm a hang glider pilot. I have no interest in reading or hearing about other sports in a hang gliding magazine.

I want an org that represents my sport, and my sport only. And ditto on the monopoly stuff. When there is only one choice, that choice can take advantage of anything and everything, and there is nothing you can do about it.

Competition is good for everyone. Sign me up when it's ready.

_________________
Gary - H3 Wills Wing U2

My day jobs - Cellular and Alarm/Video Surveillance Systems
Send private message  Rate this post
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Hang Gliding Org Forum Index -> Hang gliding general
 
All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
Page 1 of 10


 
Jump to:  


(c) HangGliding.org All rights reserved. Based on PhpBB