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gerg
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Joined: 24 Apr 2007
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Location: Mill Creek, WA (Near Seattle...)

PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:18 pm    Post subject: I can't help myself... Reply with quote #1   
So I went up flying again this saturday, and the weather was fairly decent. Not much more than sled rides, though I did extend one ride a bit longer. Had I known what I was doing, I probably could've extended it a bit longer, as I ran into some fairly strong lift (no vario though, but the GPS track after the fact does show me I went up...).

Got to try out my new harness in the air for a couple of flights, but never did get zipped up. Will have to conciously do it next time. Lots of HG's out that day, and a few PG's as well. One PG made it over launch, but the rest of us got sled runs/take off/landing practice Smile.

Mine were fairly uneventful, but I do have some video I can post later... First time I've had my landing taped.. .so I can definately see I'm not flairing right, though I've managed to get away with it so far, I need to work on it. Pushing out, not up... and starting my round-out a little too late on final.

But the real reason I wanted to put up this post... is there was someone else that I had met there that day (he shall remain nameless), that my instructor was helping out. He's a Hang-2, but has had a long break and is just picking it back up again. First flight of the day was pretty uneventful, but his second landing... well, the picture explains it.

The green field at the bottom of the pic is where the rest of us landed. The tall green grass at the edge is actually a 5 foot ditch (not good), just passed that is an electric fence that you can barely see in the photo, and beyond that is... well cows.

Fortunately there were no cow strikes in this landing. From where we were watching, it looked like he was trying to run it out for quite a long time, I'd say a good 10 seconds or so before the inevitable WHACK!

From where I was standing, it looked like he was having trouble with his knee hanger release, and by the time he finally got it, he was over the ditch. He could've turned at this point to stay in the main field, but instead flew straight a bit longer... a bit of cross-controlling involved from what I saw. We were all afraid he'd do a down-wind landing, but managed to get it turned around (wind blowing towards the camera) and had a really long runout before eventually nosing over, spinning, and whacking...

Shortly after this, the cows all gathered around him to watch him break down the glider. I went over to offer assistance, and discovered the electric wire was indeed live, so I told him to break down and then we'd be back to help.

All in all, a good day.. Mr. Green



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boarini2003
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Joined: 06 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #2   
Did you ever get your harness to fit right?
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gerg
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Joined: 24 Apr 2007
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Location: Mill Creek, WA (Near Seattle...)

PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #3   
boarini2003 wrote:
Did you ever get your harness to fit right?


Working on it... I used a carabiner to extend the chest lines by a few inches temporarily, and that was enough to make it feel "better" and good enough to fly... It felt pretty good in the air, but I didn't zip up, so I don't know for certain if that'll be enough. If it is, then all I'll need is a longer chest-line. If not, we'll figure out what needs to be done. I still feel like I'm hanging a little high, but need to see how a little more chest length might help. E.g. I might still be pitched heads-up too much.
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Nibs
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #4   
The cows look unusually interested
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gerg
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Joined: 24 Apr 2007
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Location: Mill Creek, WA (Near Seattle...)

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #5   
Here's a video from that day... All the video from the top of the mountain was from my 2nd launch of the day (west launch), and all the video from the ground was from my 1st (south launch).

Again, I think I know what I did wrong, but let me know what you think! More perspectives really help me learn...

My Dad came to watch the launch, and took most of the video and edited it all together...


Link
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boarini2003
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #6   
Nice video, that site looks beautiful. You fly a F3 195 right? What's your body/hook in weight?
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gerg
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #7   
boarini2003 wrote:
Nice video, that site looks beautiful. You fly a F3 195 right? What's your body/hook in weight?


Yep, I'm 6'2", and about 195lbs. I was 200.. but am losing some weight... Maybe it'll help me stay up longer! Okay, wait.. that just sounds bad.

Either way, I'll still be right in the middle of the "Optimum Body Weight" according to WW (170-220). Not sure what my hook-in weight is yet, haven't stood on a scale w/my harness, but it'll easily be within WW recommendations (175-275).
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boarini2003
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #8   
Heh, I ask because I would like to get an F3 later this year, and my body weight is exactly 170! Which makes it tough to decide if I want to be heavy on the 170 or light on the 195...
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flybyknight
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #9   
Nice flight,

Takeoff looks like you popped the nose a little. Jack rabbit start.
Remember Walk, Jog, Run,

Landing; get into stand up position sooner so your not transitioning so close to the ground. Its not a bad idea to standup on you downwind. Commit to your landing, your no longer in flying mode, your in landing mode. It will give you more time to do everything.
Once your running and the glider is barely or no longer lifting you start pushing up the downtubes and you will not have to run so fast or far.
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sg
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #10   
1. Popped nose on launch a bit, which prevented you from keeping your feet on the ground for a stronger launch
2. PIO on approach
3. Not enough speed on final, you need a longer ground effect
4. No flare landing. You could have finished that flare for a nice landing. But I think you sensed the wings were still a little bit unlevel and chose the half flare run in to prevent the uneven flare whack.

So your problems started back with the PIO, so you had to slow down a bit, which gave you little ground effect, which didnt allow you to get the wings perfectly level. A long chain of events that prevented a perfect landing.

Im not trying to be ultra negative here, this wasnt terrible or anything, just giving you lots of little details to think about so you can improve thumbsup

I would practice flying the wing while upright at altitude FAST, so you can prevent any PIO in the future. I like to shoot simulated approached at altitude in the upright landing position when I try a new wing out.

Once you are consistent and preventing PIO, you will be able to dive into ground effect with really good speed for a nice long ground effect run, which gives you all the time to get those wings perfectly level, and to focus on that perfect flare timing. A long ground effect run also lets the wing work out any left over yaw from the turn to final.

Ive seen this pattern for years. Guys with nice long, fast, finals, with good ground effect, have the best landings.

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sg
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #11   
flybyknight wrote:
Its not a bad idea to standup on you downwind. Commit to your landing, your no longer in flying mode, your in landing mode. It will give you more time to do everything.


This is a great point. I always do this, even as an H4. I go upright during my downwind. This has saved my bacon before. Not only does it give you one less thing to worry about on final, it also can catch problems with your harness. What if you try to go upright and for some reason CANT because there is a harness issue?? This has happened to me. I now had a lot of time to deal with it and think about what to do. If I was prone in ground effect like a lot of H4's do, i woulda been screwed.

The only time I dont go upright is if I screwed up my approach a bit, and require MORE glide at the last minute, then I stay prone longer for performance reasons. Oh, one more time. When landing in super high wind and need all the penetration I can get to make the LZ Laughing



Quote:

Once your running and the glider is barely or no longer lifting you start pushing up the downtubes and you will not have to run so fast or far.


Another great point. Dont forget you have a giant drogue chute behind you that you can activate once you start running Wink

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Thomas Jefferson wrote:
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gerg
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #12   
boarini2003 wrote:
Heh, I ask because I would like to get an F3 later this year, and my body weight is exactly 170! Which makes it tough to decide if I want to be heavy on the 170 or light on the 195...

Yeah, I hear ya. From looking around different forums I've picked up some info. Seems a lot of people prefer to be slightly on the heavy side as opposed to the light side because the heavier you are, you typically also have more muscle/strength to handle/control the larger glider, whereas if you're on the light side, you may be fighting it a bit more in windy/turbulent conditions, but you won't get as much float as you would with the larger wing. Do you want more control at the cost of a little float? I guess the other question is do you plan on losing weight, or gaining it?

flybyknight wrote:
Nice flight,

Takeoff looks like you popped the nose a little. Jack rabbit start.
Remember Walk, Jog, Run,

Landing; get into stand up position sooner so your not transitioning so close to the ground. Its not a bad idea to standup on you downwind. Commit to your landing, your no longer in flying mode, your in landing mode. It will give you more time to do everything.
Once your running and the glider is barely or no longer lifting you start pushing up the downtubes and you will not have to run so fast or far.

Great feedback! Thanks!
The launch is a cliff launch, so not much room to run more than a step or three, but I do need to work on keeping the nose down.
I had every intention to go upright during the whole approach. It was my first flight in a new harness, and I simply forgot until I got onto final! Eak! Good catch though. Will make a concious decision to do it when I start my downwind.
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Nate
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #13   
boarini2003 wrote:
Heh, I ask because I would like to get an F3 later this year, and my body weight is exactly 170! Which makes it tough to decide if I want to be heavy on the 170 or light on the 195...


I am in the same boat at 170 lbs but having just started my H2, I have some time to decide.

I figure most of that decision will be made by my instructor when I get to the point of making that purchase. Until now....training hill. thumbsup

It's the steady drop that wears the stone Wink

Greg - thanks for sharing, always an inspiration. popcorn
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flybyknight
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #14   
If I were you and I was. I would fly the instructors glider until your ready to get your own then get a Sport 2. You will not believe how this glider flys and lands.
With VG off its like a falcon. Except for the fact that it is flying near the ground not mushing. Its easier to land. NO kidding. If your instructor has one ask him to let you ground run it a few times. It controls soooooooo! much better than a falcon.

Also what altitudes do you launch at. Here in arizona regular launch is 6 to 8 thousand feet landing at 3 to 4000 feet. I would go bigger wing. If your lower or coastal you can go with the smaller wing.

SG, great feed back. I apprieciate someone with your experience giving feedback on a daily basis. Most experienced stop helping after a while.
Thanks

Mark Knight
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gerg
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #15   
sg wrote:
1. Popped nose on launch a bit, which prevented you from keeping your feet on the ground for a stronger launch
2. PIO on approach
3. Not enough speed on final, you need a longer ground effect
4. No flare landing. You could have finished that flare for a nice landing. But I think you sensed the wings were still a little bit unlevel and chose the half flare run in to prevent the uneven flare whack.

So your problems started back with the PIO, so you had to slow down a bit, which gave you little ground effect, which didnt allow you to get the wings perfectly level. A long chain of events that prevented a perfect landing.

Im not trying to be ultra negative here, this wasnt terrible or anything, just giving you lots of little details to think about so you can improve thumbsup

...

Ive seen this pattern for years. Guys with nice long, fast, finals, with good ground effect, have the best landings.


Good stuff, thanks, not taking it as negative, it's constructive! The PIO really started when I went upright, one hand, then the other while already diving. Definately need to get upright sooner, and push UP not OUT during flair... and definately get that windbrake up when running it out. The long run was somewhat on purpose towards the end, to get closer to the truck for breakdown, but I definately see room for improvement.

I'm going to have to video-tape all of my landings from now on... Smile
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sg
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #16   
gerg wrote:

I'm going to have to video-tape all of my landings from now on... Smile


This will sharpen your landing skills faster than anything mosh

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Lobido
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #17   
Gerg,

Thanks for posting the video. As a novice I watched it and thought, nice job! It was helpful to read other's views, got me some ejumacation there. Tell your dad I enjoyed the music, too. I look forward to your future postings.

By the way, seemed like you were up there a while. Were you catching thermals and using the vario? thumbsup

Curt

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gerg
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #18   
Lobido wrote:
Gerg,
Thanks for posting the video. As a novice I watched it and thought, nice job! It was helpful to read other's views, got me some ejumacation there. Tell your dad I enjoyed the music, too. I look forward to your future postings.

By the way, seemed like you were up there a while. Were you catching thermals and using the vario? thumbsup

Curt


Thanks! Just using my seat-of-the-pants Vario and keeping an eye on my glide path to the LZ. There was definately some ridge lift (good south wind) and a couple nice thermals (you can see the cu's poping over the ridge). I did turn a few times, more of a ridge pattern than thermal circling (I still think my turns are too lossy...), but you can see on my track log that I did actually get some altitude gain and maintained for some time up there. I just had no good way to determine how strong it was or really find the core.

I was the first off the hill (call me the wind-dummy for that day...), and we were planning more than one trip up the mountain, so I felt a little pressure to not poke around too long, though in hind-sight, I should've stayed up as long as possible. The rest of the guys told me it looked like I had found some of the widest lift they'd seen there for some time, and if I only started turning at the right spot I would've easily hit cloudbase. Shocked and that in the future... if conditions are right, go for it... don't worry about staying up too long. Mr. Green

After that, the wind shifted from south to west, and then north-west by the time I got off for my 2nd flight.. which is why the 2nd flight track used a different launch/landing direction.

EDIT: Looking at the GPS logs, both flights were about 5 minutes, with the first one being a bit longer.



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