Yeah, that's the truth Cal! I'm not really trying to convince anybody. It's just fun to join in the discussions and get feedback
CAL wrote:
We all have different styles if you have one the works consistently, why change what works for some may not work for others , i have watched different methods, pilots come in on finals both with failures and both with ace landings
i think the proper method is the one that works for you consistently , i have seen one pilot ace every landing using one method and another pilot use the other method and ace all of there landing therefore both methods are good, i am still trying to figure out what works for me and when i find out and nail my landings consistently i will not even consider using any other approach ,
sure wish i could figure it out !
i like discussion as well , i hope i did not sound like i was trying to stop any discussion i enjoyed your input and video PJ , i was more or less agreeing with everyones styles because both work , i think it is awesome how you are trying things out to figure which one works the best for you . i think you are doing awesome PJ !
i like the fact everyone discusses there method . it gives pilots like myself something to try out till i find out the one that works best for me _________________ Explore nature from the eyes of an Eagle
oh good god no . im just saying if your getting in some chunkie air your better off on the base tube .
I would say you want to get your head up. That does not necessarily equate to both hands on the DTs. _________________ "If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space." - Anonymous
I flew this afternoon. It was a brilliant thermally day and as a result was very active in the LZ. Because of this thread I decided to do some experimentation with coming in with both hands on the uprights. Here are the results:
You can see I'm getting tossed around way too much. I had positive roll control but pitch control was not sufficient. You can see right at about :45 I check my vario... that's because it was beeping at me. I had entered a thermal and pulled in fully I was still getting about 150FPM up. At :55 I move my hands to the base tube again because I'm considering trying to turn in it but I realized that this would probably not end well. I go back to both hands on the uprights for the rest of final.
It isn't easy to pull in that much with your hands in that position. You basically have to hold on with one finger and the thumb. You're using a set of weak muscles. Every turn input also necessitates a little loss of speed because of the way the body is positioned. On the plus side there is no doubt that I was able to focus more strongly on my flare and timing as a result of having no transition to worry about.
It was a fun test and I don't think I'll ever try and land with both hands on the uprights again.
wow, in chunky air like this I would try to howl ass all the way in to ground effect...
If your ass is howling you might be getting a little too much fiber in your diet.
selbaer wrote:
pjwings wrote:
I flew this afternoon. It was a brilliant thermally day and as a result was very active in the LZ. Because of this thread I decided to do some experimentation with coming in with both hands on the uprights. Here are the results:
You can see I'm getting tossed around way too much. I had positive roll control but pitch control was not sufficient. You can see right at about :45 I check my vario... that's because it was beeping at me. I had entered a thermal and pulled in fully I was still getting about 150FPM up. At :55 I move my hands to the base tube again because I'm considering trying to turn in it but I realized that this would probably not end well. I go back to both hands on the uprights for the rest of final.
It isn't easy to pull in that much with your hands in that position. You basically have to hold on with one finger and the thumb. You're using a set of weak muscles. Every turn input also necessitates a little loss of speed because of the way the body is positioned. On the plus side there is no doubt that I was able to focus more strongly on my flare and timing as a result of having no transition to worry about.
It was a fun test and I don't think I'll ever try and land with both hands on the uprights again.
wow, in chunky air like this I would try to howl ass all the way in to ground effect...
_________________ Paul H
U2 160 USHPA # 51178 KE7VOG
H4, FL, AT, PL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C, CL, AWCL, 360, HA,
USN ret. A & P mechanic
Ok, here is one for discussion. I mentioned it earlier, but could not get the video over to this thread at the time.
It's a little over a minute long and you can see the approach, the round out, transition and run out. This was with wind speed of zero, flag was hanging straight down so I came in with a plan to run.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6wl45swbgbk _________________ H3, AT, FL, CL, AWCL, 360 -- Student Pilot
WillsWing Eagle 164
WillsWing U2 145
WillsWing T2C 144
If your ass is howling you might be getting a little too much fiber in your diet.
selbaer wrote:
pjwings wrote:
I flew this afternoon. It was a brilliant thermally day and as a result was very active in the LZ. Because of this thread I decided to do some experimentation with coming in with both hands on the uprights. Here are the results:
You can see I'm getting tossed around way too much. I had positive roll control but pitch control was not sufficient. You can see right at about :45 I check my vario... that's because it was beeping at me. I had entered a thermal and pulled in fully I was still getting about 150FPM up. At :55 I move my hands to the base tube again because I'm considering trying to turn in it but I realized that this would probably not end well. I go back to both hands on the uprights for the rest of final.
It isn't easy to pull in that much with your hands in that position. You basically have to hold on with one finger and the thumb. You're using a set of weak muscles. Every turn input also necessitates a little loss of speed because of the way the body is positioned. On the plus side there is no doubt that I was able to focus more strongly on my flare and timing as a result of having no transition to worry about.
It was a fun test and I don't think I'll ever try and land with both hands on the uprights again.
wow, in chunky air like this I would try to howl ass all the way in to ground effect...
Damn, I knew I'm spelling it wrong. after 12 years in the US I still can't get it right...
I'm much better at the DHV forum.
Because some pilots are saying they stay completely prone until AFTER they round out and the glider starts to slow. And because I've seen several pilots do this at various LZ's and I'm afraid less experienced pilots will try doing it "cuz it looks cool" zooming across the ground completely prone at 5ft off the deck... until you fly into that surprise sink or hole.
Joe...you agree there is a BIG difference in coming in prone head down, and coming in like erik's picture (he is on the basetube, but more upright then my harness EVER gets)
I am with RC pilot on this one come in on the basetube....or at least 1 up 1 down _________________ TSA, DHS, NDAA and SOPA Seig Heil!
Once while landing at Parker,s Mtn here in the Okanagan , I was flying fairly fast 6' off the deck, tyrying hard to control wing thru "very nasty air",
Still, at 6 feet, I got pancaked!
Not even a nanosecond to pushout.
Of course I then stuffed my head under the nose of my wing.
Had no idea I could stretch out that far.( full face helmet saved my jaw from being broken )
heh, I remember that day, thanks for checking the LZ first and then warning me on the radio, man ! Bailed elsewhere and took the pic in my avatar that day, the sky was starting to boil...
It's been so long since I flew, I can't remember when I transition hands, but I'm in the one up/one down camp usually. Sometimes I look like this little emoticon dude - , if you imagine his other hand on the basetube
So far I think we've heard from at least one pilot for every possibility. Hands up, hands down, head up, head down, before final, during skimming, etc.
I have been wanting to try this and today I got my chance.
I stay prone but put my hands on the lowest part of the down tubes.
Kinda the best of both worlds, im still prone and can still pull in almost as much as being on the base tube.
It's funny because this is exactly the opposite of what the more vocal posters in this thread have been recommending. And the exact reason they say not to do this is the same reason you like it (speed range).
I guess what we can learn from this thread is that one single technique is not best for every glider/harness/pilot combo.
Joe...you agree there is a BIG difference in coming in prone head down, and coming in like erik's picture (he is on the basetube, but more upright then my harness EVER gets)
I am with RC pilot on this one come in on the basetube....or at least 1 up 1 down
yes, I agree. I never said there's anything wrong with flying 1 or both hands on the basetube. I'm talking about pilots who stay prone, as in body parallel to the keel, all the way down below 10ft off the deck and THEN start to rock up. I think that's a recipe for a broken neck, except in exceptionally smooth air.
I think its actually pretty hard to hit your head, given the dimensions of downtubes and the nose.
Though, if said downtubes break, and the ground is uneven....
But - look at the title of this thread- When to switch hands, not when to lift your head up.
You need not take your hands off the basetube to get your body semi-upright.
I'd recommend going semi-upright fairly soon, as that is a much draggier position, and drag is your friend when it comes time to land.... you don't use up as much LZ.
If you go back and look at the video/pic, i posted earlier(in the posts where I mangled my wording, and use downtubes vs uprights instead of basetube vs uprights/downtubes, TWICE and only fixed one during the first edit *shakes head in shame*), I'm not actually *that* upright, but my legs are dropping down (extra drag) making me look more upright, my torso wasn't near vertical, but it still wasn't near horizontal either. _________________ H4, Litespeed 4 w/ Mylar sail.
Previous: Airwave K2, Wills Wing Eagle 145
Here's something that I edited from the Wills Wing Covert harness test video that I find personally very instructive since I also land with a nose-heavy backplate harness on a T2C w/ zero VG.
Here's something that I edited from the Wills Wing Covert harness test video that I find personally very instructive since I also land with a nose-heavy backplate harness on a T2C w/ zero VG.
Very instructive in what way? That's exactly the landing technique I was referring to in my earlier posts. The style you can "get away with" when you KNOW the LZ is mellow, but is potentially very dangerous in any other conidtions. Notice how his body is still pretty much parallel to the keel as he's skimming along with the basetube 4ft off the deck? The hang point slider still appears to be all the way back and yes, his feet are out of the harness, but at that angle they'll do no good if he flies into some turbulence that causes a sudden loss of 4ft.
Erik Boehm wrote:
I think its actually pretty hard to hit your head, given the dimensions of downtubes and the nose.
I guess you've not heard of pilots either smacking the nose plates with their helmet or poking thru the bottom surface during a bad whack? That's exactly what would happen with that landing technique if he dropped just 4ft. due to turbulence. The basetube would catch the ground causing rapid deceleration as well as pitching the nose over. Once the nose hits, nearly all forward energy stops, except for the pilot's body which swings forward and makes a sudden stop as his helmet and neck compress against the keel/nose plates. Paralysis or death are very possible, depending on the velocity.
I've seen and heard of that happening multiple times, usually due to turbulence where the pilot didn't feel they had time to react.
Here's something that I edited from the Wills Wing Covert harness test video that I find personally very instructive since I also land with a nose-heavy backplate harness on a T2C w/ zero VG.
Very instructive in what way? That's exactly the landing technique I was referring to in my earlier posts. The style you can "get away with" when you KNOW the LZ is mellow, but is potentially very dangerous in any other conidtions. Notice how his body is still pretty much parallel to the keel as he's skimming along with the basetube 4ft off the deck? The hang point slider still appears to be all the way back and yes, his feet are out of the harness, but at that angle they'll do no good if he flies into some turbulence that causes a sudden loss of 4ft................
It's instructive in exactly the way I described: flying a nose-heavy single-suspension back-plate harness and landing a T2 or T2C with zero VG that will pitch up very severely if the bar is released. Have you ever flown this exact combination of equipment? I have hundreds of hours on this setup and can tell you that it is impossible to pull on more than a marginal amount of speed with your body upright and your hands on the downtubes in Zero VG in a nose-heavy back-plate harness. If I flew my cocoon harness I could pull on loads of speed with both hands low on the DTs and would never have to deal with hand transitions near the ground. But that's not what I normally fly.
The only way to come in fast into ground effect is with the hands on the base tube. Your body does not need to be prone or semi-prone with the slider aft but both hands need to be on the base tube. That being said, it is essential to make the hand transition at or very near trim speed so that the glider neither rolls nor pitches up. I have broken more down tubes than probably anyone due to bad hand transitions. I have never been properly instructed nor seen (until now) a good video demonstration of finding trim while in ground effect on the same equipment that I fly.
This video shows Dustin letting go with both hands exactly at trim speed and the glider doesn't budge. He could have easily gone upright much earlier but his hands would have remained on the base tube until trim, at which time he could have made either two-handed or one-handed transition without the glider budging. That is the point. The glider doesn't budge and the pilot came into ground effect with loads of speed and both hands on the base tube.
So, the only way I can safely take my setup through strong surface turbulence or wind gradients is with both hands on the base tube. This means I also need to be able to feel trim accurately so I can get my hands up into flare position at the correct time. Historically I have been utterly oblivious to where trim speed is while flying in the setup I described. This video snippet graphically shows me what I personally need to see in order to consistently and accurately recognize trim speed in ground effect when semi-prone in a nose-heavy back-plate harness on a high aspect ratio glider that tends to pitch up rather severely.
No amount of written description will ever make any difference to me. I need to see it or I won't learn it. Simple as that. This is the first video that shows me what I personally need to see. Thank you for your written contributions. I'm sure they're of great value to many.
RCpilot... hahahaha
I was about to start my post trying to say that same thing, but I would have done so far less elegantly.
As with most technique issues, there isn't one "correct" answer.
Everything we do involves tradeoffs. The trick is to find what works for you. It helps to know what you're trading for what as well.
The primary reason for staying prone into ground effect is familiarity. We spend 90% of our time flying prone, so we're very experienced at doing so. There are of course advantages to this.
The downside of waiting that long are many. One of the biggies is that you're compressing a lot of tasks into a very short and critical timeframe. Most pilots do not do well this way. In fact, one of the most common difficulties people experience with landing is mental overload. The most common is landing too slowly. Overload is probably the next most common.
Usually, when juggling all that stuff, the thing that gets people is when they do eventually go upright, they slow down. If they're carrying speed, which is a good thing, they balloon up. This puts them back into high and slow... defeating the whole purpose of carrying speed. They are now descending at trim for landing and it usually doesn't go well.
The other common mistake is since you move your hands one at a time, if you let the pressure off unevenly... which of course you are doing because that's the bit you're stuffing up... then not only do you "pop up", you put yourself into a turn. "I got a wing lifted".
This is why one of my favorite techniques is the "one up, one down".
If I'm flying a backplate harness, I rock the slider up when I switch to one up one down. I usually switch after I turn onto final, but everyone's taste is different.
As with most technique issues, there isn't one "correct" answer. Everything we do involves tradeoffs. The trick is to find what works for you. It helps to know what you're trading for what as well...
You guys might jump my case being as I'm a low time pilot on a low performance wing, but I find I do far better landings when I do them just like the video NMErider posted. I just seem to be better at landing when I don't think about it. When I come in upright on the downtubes I will blow almost every landing, generally flaring too late. So far *knock on wood* using the method of coming in fast and prone, I have not had a landing that wasn't stable and on my feet.
Feel free to tear me apart so I can evaluate the risks involved in doing that. _________________ Airborne Sting 2 154XC
H2, FL, CL, FSL, AT
Nothing to tear apart.
Different strokes for different folks.
I'll take a wild guess that when you land upright, you're coming in too slow. I can't tell you how many times I talk to people that swear that they're coming in fast (when upright) and they're actually quite slow.
You're familiar with flying prone and it's quite easy to fly fast when prone. Just be aware that changing so low might not always work out. You're taking your hands off the wheel at a very critical time.
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Because of this thread I decided to do some experimentation with coming in with both hands on the uprights. Here are the results:
I had positive roll control but pitch control was not sufficient. You can see right at about :45 I check my vario... that's because it was beeping at me. I had entered a 
! Bailed elsewhere and took the pic in my avatar that day, the sky was starting to boil...
