What I suggested was that you stick to your own mission statement. No more, no less. You're not happy with that and that is fine. But do not mistake this for my problem.
When you can show me how to footlaunch a 747, I will agree to your hyperbole.
Yes, we do decide what and who we are. Save the over the top oh my god stuff for someone else.
BTW, you already do share the air with "those crazy guys".
I fly speedwings as well.
I can introduce you to lots of people that fly both HG and Speedwings. In fact, guess who they have more in common with? Yup, hanggliders.... oh that need for speed that you just can't get with a PG. Meet your other brothers.
Oh snap.. the world isn't as black and white as you'd like.
I'm sorry.
Oh, you know why paragliders, speedwing guys and skydivers think you're nuts? Because you fly head first.
Yup, it's as simple as that.
BTW, I couldn't care less if you want them in or out of your little club.
I just think you look funny as hell when you try to vilify them.
Jim
sounds like the way I fly. You want to kick me out of the club too? I think you're confusing HUMAN BEHAVIOR with actual aircraft traits. Speed wings ARE small paragliders. The only way i see to differentiate is to draw a line in terms of wing loading. But watch where you draw that line, I can hook in at over 200 lbs and I only have 144 squares over my head.
tipvortex wrote:
Watch a few YouTube videos of speed wings and tell me they're safe.
using that logic, watch a few YouTube videos of hang gliding and tell me it's safe Im sorry, but I hope we're smarter than this!
In my opinion, anyone that doesn't have compassion for these guys are simply too biased or simple minded to see the 'other side'. People want to do the right thing, other people are telling them they can't and won't help. Then these people fly anyway and potentially endanger sites... And you say call the law on them?! Really?!
You are all the 'haves' in this situation, turning your back to the 'have nots' and feeling proud of yourselves for doing so.
I don't even like paragliders for christ sake, what reason do I have to support this?! Maybe because from what I am directly experiencing here at the point, it makes sense?! _________________ Ryan Voight
BLOG: www.AIRTHUG.com
VIDEOS: http://vimeo.com/AIRTHUG
sounds like the way I fly. You want to kick me out of the club too? I think you're confusing HUMAN BEHAVIOR with actual aircraft traits. Speed wings ARE small paragliders. The only way i see to differentiate is to draw a line in terms of wing loading. But watch where you draw that line, I can hook in at over 200 lbs and I only have 144 squares over my head.
and even at that wingloading you can soar no problem
at the speed gliding comp I hooked in at
160# pilot weight
30# harness
20# ballast
80# glider
= 290 lbs
my sensor has 142 squares----2.04 psf _________________ TSA, DHS, NDAA and SOPA Seig Heil!
Y'all complain that paragliders are too slow and then when they build a faster one you complain about that. Speedwings are to PG what speedgliding and dune gooning is to HG.
I loaded up on ballast and flew a tiny (120 sqft) Aeros wing from time to time . Should I have been kicked out of the USHGA?
ETA: Oh, and I once did a hundred miler XC in that same tiny wing.
Yeah, but not for anything having to do with gliders.
knumbknuts wrote:
Look,
A cow can soar in a tornado.
Which begs the question of whether one can foot launch if they have hooves. (Those of us with cloven hooves are extremely interested in the answer.)
Quote:
Why are we adopting strays?
A. Someone on the BoD sees a way to make a buck off of it.
B. Adding members to keep the association alive is always valid.
C. Their sad puppy/kitten eyes are irresistible. How can you say "No." _________________ "If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space." - Anonymous
Rebardan brought up the guys with speedwings at Elsinore.
They couldn't even make the Oak Tree LZ.
They landed in a turnout on the Ortega Highway.
Yea, people are going to think they are PGs. I don't think the proper way to deal with the confusion is to say:
"Now that you mention it, they're not PGs, but those guys that just crashed into a state road because their whole premise is to buzz the terrain are part of our organization."
So if they built a hang glider "speedwing" we would all be buying 70 square' wings and flying in 50mph winds? _________________ Airborne Climax 14 (C1)
WW U2
H3
AT, FL,ST, RLF, TUR.
There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. … Clearly, it is this second part, the missing, which presents the difficulties. ~~~Douglas Adams
Last edited by CHassan on Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:10 am; edited 1 time in total
Well, I don't agree with them, either, and I point them out to shine a brighter light on how silly it is to consider bringing speed wings into the organization when we can't even agree on how PGs and HGs should get along.
While we agree that there are some serious flaws in certain site applications of HG/PG rules, I don't grasp the logic that it follows we must therefore continue to exclude across the board.
It's not as if the problem is a matter of the 'time to solve' those other issues. If allowing speedwings *detracted* from those efforts, then we would agree -- but allowing speedwings at the Point isn't going to have an impact on the silliness at Funston for example.
Y'all complain that paragliders are too slow and then when they build a faster one you complain about that. Speedwings are to PG what speedgliding and dune gooning is to HG.
I loaded up on ballast and flew a tiny (120 sqft) Aeros wing from time to time . Should I have been kicked out of the USHGA?
ETA: Oh, and I once did a hundred miler XC in that same tiny wing.
JB
Holy Sh!t... I'm going to open myself up to more cracks about my reading comprehension, I'm sure...
But I think BubbleBoy and I just... AGREED?
That should say something in and of itself...
knumbknuts wrote:
I don't think the proper way to deal with the confusion is to say:
"Now that you mention it, they're not PGs, but those guys that just crashed into a state road because their whole premise is to buzz the terrain are part of our organization."
I would prefer:
"Uh, they're not with us."
Again, if you have an issue with pilots who's 'whole premise' is to buzz the terrain, why didn't you protest the speed gliding event at Ed Levin?
And sure, why don't you tell an angry land owner that "they're not with us"... or better yet a county or state parks official. They don't want to hear "we don't regulate those things using your land"... they want to hear "they are under our supervision and if anything should happen rest assured we will deal with it internally".
It seems this is bringing up a lot of bad blood from way back with paragliders were adopted. I don't like having a mixed association either... but I understand that we are such a small sport that it is nearly unfeasible for each of us to stand alone.
This speedwing thing is NOT about adding members, dollars, or whatever else the conspiracy theoriests might think.... it's about people that are already using established flying sites, that are unable to do so legally. It is about people who are out there, completely unregulated, and like you all said are bound to get into trouble.
You can be REactive, once a site is being lost, or you can look to what's best for the future and be PROactive. I'm not saying you have to embrace them and give them hugs and kisses... I'm just saying that I would like the users of my site to do so legally so they don't screw it up for everyone.
We are all entitled to our own opinions, clearly... but I haven't heard any compelling reason not to allow them in, other than that you guys don't like them. Got something better, I'd love to hear it. Maybe you'll even change my mind... but this 'us' and 'them' mentality 'aint cuttin it for me. _________________ Ryan Voight
BLOG: www.AIRTHUG.com
VIDEOS: http://vimeo.com/AIRTHUG
I currently fly a 110sq ft glider (Aeros Stealth)
SG & BB have as well... BB did speedgliding with one.
Should we be kicked out of the club?
"We can't even get HG/PG to get along"... so what?
We have consensus. That's all you need.
Take out the PGers and the HG/Rigid wars will erupt again. Or the Tow/FL wars.
Hrm, this could actually be a good thing.
Since the PGers came along, the HGers and Rigids don't seem to fight so much. Perhaps by including Speedwings, the HGers and PGers will quit fighting?
The whole "what is a paraglider" and "what is a speedglider" question could be simply delineated by squarefootage, no?
My arguments are all based on the notion that speedwings are not paragliders.
Again, adopting a whole new type of wing just because they are already utilizing various sites "successfully" runs counter not only to logic, but to the whole idea of controlling a site for reasons of safety.
Why doesn't point of the mountain just deal with them on their own? Why do we have to make it a part of USHPA? I'm thinking about installing a catapult above AJX. Should I get get cantaloupes into USHPA if I successfully hit the LZ? Hmm... why don't I just ask the LZ leaseholders if I can chuck fruit into the area? Again, we had people who wanted to roll down our hill in plastic balls, we said no.
If speedwings are to be a part of USHPA, bring them in the front door. How about this: get feedback from the members (and don't tell us to talk to our RDs, I live in region 3).
I just don't get why the whole organization is contemplating bringing a new form of flying in because a few sites have been letting them fly there already, especially when we are barely functional with the two wing types we already have.
Here's a scenario. An HG, PG and Speedwing (SW) are all flying a site (regardless of whether SWs should be flying, I think its established they areflying [certain] sites). The HG and PG pilots are covered by USHPA insurance should they damage property on that site. The SW is not. In the landowner's eyes, SW is = to PG, and thus he tries to get USHPA insurance to cover the damage. Once discovered there is no coverage as SWs are not part of USHPA, what do you think the landowner's reaction is going to be? I'd bet the site would get closed to all three sports. You may know that SWs are not PGs, but the landowner may not know, and may not care either.
Also, unless you own the property where you fly, its not your site, its the landowner's. You have an agreement with the landowner to fly there given our insurance coverage. Unless you have a specific agreement that you can prevent other activities from occurring, only the landowner has the right to control SW's access to the site. If you want to have control over their participation, the only way is to either purchase the land yourself, or make SW's an USHPA controlled sport. _________________ H2, FL, FSL
#2 you tell rated PG pilots they can't fly gliders YOU don't recognize as PGs.
How about I don't recognize non-certified gliders as hang gliders? Looks like Jason and his sensor are screwed.
It's gotta work both ways. You cry fairness for Torrey... Not at POM for example? _________________ Ryan Voight
BLOG: www.AIRTHUG.com
VIDEOS: http://vimeo.com/AIRTHUG
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Im sorry, but I hope we're smarter than this!
