While I won't say lumping HG and PG is a stretch (quite the opposite in my opinion), he does have a point....
USHPA mission statement....
Quote:
"The purpose of the United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association is to promote the growth of sport flying in foot-launchable soaring aircraft."
I still think you should provide a path for the speedwingers to get legal. It's a bit of a strange spot because they can be used for soaring. They're not mainly used this way, but they can.
I tend to get around the issue by getting them to P1, which is pretty damn easy for a speedwinger. There may be a better answer, but that one does the trick in the mean time.
However, if you hold them hard/fast to that rule... you don't get to gripe what so ever about HG and PG being under the same roof. Not saying you are... just a reminder.
. . . How can you not be sympathetic to the situation some are finding themselves in?
Well, # 1) I don't have to imagine flying illegally if I don't want to. #2) As a USHPA member, I don't jeopardize sites that call for pilots to be USHPA members. #3) I don't have any significant [sympathetic] connection with someone who finds zooming at high speeds through the air - very close to the ground - in a tiny collapsible canopy, an enjoyable or attractive activity.
Also, it seems to me that if I, as a USHPA member, flew an aircraft at a local hang gliding site that somehow wasn't recognized by the USHPA, then it wouldn't matter that I happened to (more often?) fly my hang glider at that site. What would matter is that I'm flying an unrecognized aircraft that is not covered under USHPA's third party liability insurance. Effectively, the land owner has not given the pilots of such aircraft permission to fly the site (unless they, specifically, HAVE).
As a USHPA member I should only fly a hang glider or PG at a USHPA (only) insured flying site. And if I see some other pilot flying some unrecognized aircraft (whether they are a USHPA member or not), I should inform them that they too are jeopardizing the flying site - and that they should stop.
* * *
Clearly, the superficial similarity between a typical PG canopy and a smaller Speed Wing canopy can make their use a (claimed to be) "foggy" issue. It seems to me that USHPA could simply clarify the situation by defining a PG as having a combined wing loading of no more than X lbs per sq. ft. Then there would be no confusion over who's flying a wing that's not covered by USHPA insurance. _________________ WW 141 Fusion SP
Master rated, First flight - May 1975
FL, PL, PA, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TURB, X-C
The US Hang Gliding Association is a member-controlled sport organization dedicated to the exploration and promotion of all facets of unpowered ultralight flight, and to the education, training and safety of its membership
One thing that no one has yet brought up regarding Speed Wings being brought into the USHPA, . . .
How soon will the USHPA be dividing the magazine into THREE f*ing parts?
Oh, and when will the USHPA become the USHPSWA? It's a damn nightmare.
Here's an idea I'd go for -
Split off PGs and SW into their own association or, at least, division. Let flex wings and rigid wings stick together in a new (and good old) USHGA. _________________ WW 141 Fusion SP
Master rated, First flight - May 1975
FL, PL, PA, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TURB, X-C
Just a little correction here. And it's now true in more than one regard.
jimrooney wrote:
Oh, and lest we forget our roots ;)
Quote:
The US Hang Gliding Association WAS a member-controlled sport organization dedicated to the exploration and promotion of all facets of unpowered ultralight flight, and to the education, training and safety of its membership. [bolded correction]
Jim, why I think it is a stretch to join two different sports (hang+para) is that one will have more accidents and be more of a liability to the other sport in the assoc.. I don't know which has more accidents/ cost to our association, but if hg has more accidents and legal costs, it would be unfair to have paragliders be responsible for those costs and vice versa. Otherwise I think they are complimentary and similar sports. The last thing I want is to have some of my yearly costs go to cover speed wingers accidents, which appears more dangerous to me. So you can get these guys P1'S and get past the technicalities, but are they more liability? Should hangs or bags pay for their mistakes, or speed wingers pay for bags and hangs mistakes? Too many different sports under one umbrella will lead to everyone being unhappy. We already have conflicting interests as it is. I fly both, but I would still rather see individual associations represent each sport.
And the PGs say hangglider landings scare them....
Seems like those things need ski's+snow to properly land.... or really big tricycle wheels attached to their arsch. _________________ H4, Litespeed 4 w/ Mylar sail.
Previous: Airwave K2, Wills Wing Eagle 145
There has to be a line drawn somewhere or potentially you could have Boeing 787's and the space shuttle in the club. Sure it would take a hell of a lot of wind, but they could be foot launched and soared. _________________ Airborne Climax 14 (C1)
WW U2
H3
AT, FL,ST, RLF, TUR.
There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. … Clearly, it is this second part, the missing, which presents the difficulties. ~~~Douglas Adams
What I suggested was that you stick to your own mission statement. No more, no less. You're not happy with that and that is fine. But do not mistake this for my problem.
When you can show me how to footlaunch a 747, I will agree to your hyperbole.
Yes, we do decide what and who we are. Save the over the top oh my god stuff for someone else.
BTW, you already do share the air with "those crazy guys".
I fly speedwings as well.
I can introduce you to lots of people that fly both HG and Speedwings. In fact, guess who they have more in common with? Yup, hanggliders.... oh that need for speed that you just can't get with a PG. Meet your other brothers.
Oh snap.. the world isn't as black and white as you'd like.
I'm sorry.
Oh, you know why paragliders, speedwing guys and skydivers think you're nuts? Because you fly head first.
Yup, it's as simple as that.
BTW, I couldn't care less if you want them in or out of your little club.
I just think you look funny as hell when you try to vilify them.
Jim
Just because you can force something to soar does not mean its really a soaring aircraft.
I seem to remember someone calculating that large enough thermals exist to soar a 757 Doesnt mean its really a soaring aircraft.
Lets face it... ushpa probably just see's #'s and $$$ signs, and thats the real driver here.
Wonder if they will change the mission statement and come up with a new training and rating system for speedwings, because the current PG training is not really going to apply. _________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
Thomas Jefferson wrote:
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
People that want to do the right thing should get HELP doing the right thing, not a door slammed in their face... in my opinion...
Only see door slamming so far.
Hmmmmm, . . .
Here's a parallel scenario for you -
I've got a friend who drives a car but has no license. He's young, likes to drive fast and street race - all the time. He also likes to ride a motorcycle, but again, only if he can street race. Now I understand that you have great insurance coverage. I want to arrange for you to let this wonderful young fellow add his car and bike to your insurance policy. Of course you have to lie to your insurance company and tell them he's a safe and conservative driver. You'd also have to (fraudulently) take a driver's test for him so he can get his license. Why? Well, he never passes the test himself because he only thinks driving involves his idea of the rules - which mostly involve going 20 - 40 mph over the speed limit, only stopping when he wants to, or when he crashes.
So, you'll "open the door" for him him, right? Thanks! You're such a nice guy. _________________ WW 141 Fusion SP
Master rated, First flight - May 1975
FL, PL, PA, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TURB, X-C
Watch a few YouTube videos of speed wings and tell me they're safe. Even on a sinking glide off a ridge they come extremely close to slamming into the ground. The few I've watched of them soaring aren't any better and in a banked turn they drop like a rock.
We moved past the standard Rogallo days and our accident rates have drastically improved since then. As an association, do we really want those number to skyrocket? They will no doubt do just that as speed wings become more popular. _________________ WW U2 160
Hey don't knock those Swiss-French Whoopy wings, they look to be getting better:
They even make a powered flying version of them, not just the whoopy equivalent of the "kite wing" or a PG speed wing.
It is an interesting concept, with some development, who knows.....
Looks to pack up pretty small too
^That includes the power unit
I'd rather include these woopy wings with increased spans (such that they can be foot launched and landed, not ski launched and landed) into the USHPA, than those speed wings that would be better served trying to integrate with a Ski or Snowboard club/Association/org.
Quote:
People that want to do the right thing should get HELP doing the right thing, not a door slammed in their face
Sure would be nice to help those that are looking to legally do what they will do anyway, but that doesn't mean I think the USHPA should start giving seminars on the process for getting a green card to illegal immigrants.
It also doesn't mean the USHPA should incorporate Base jumpers, and lobby for them to be allowed in national parks where hang and or para gliding is allowed.
If they don't soar, I don't care how much they would like help to legally do what they will do illegally if need be, its not the USHPA's place to incorporate them.
So in my mind, it all hinges on if they primarily soar these things, or go to the ski slopes, and occasionally try and fly a ridge when its blown out "for shits and giggles"
I can direct you to some pictures on facebook of a guy trying to ridge soar a basejumping rig.... doesn't mean the org should incorporate base jumpers.
Are these things actually used for ridge soaring any more than kit surfers use their kites, or base jumpers use their chutes?
Keep in mind, this speed gliding sport started with sky diving canopies, and the PGers have gone out of their way to point out how PGs are not merely scaled up sky diving canopies (down to the internal webbing of the cells, the opening shapes, the line and control configuration, etc).
Just looking at the harness positions alone, it is clear these things can be distinguished from being simply mini-PGs.
If they really are used mainly for soaring in stronger winds... *grumbles* let them in the Association, if not, they can form their own group. _________________ H4, Litespeed 4 w/ Mylar sail.
Previous: Airwave K2, Wills Wing Eagle 145
[So, you'll "open the door" for him him, right? Thanks! You're such a nice guy.
Wingspan,
My avatar is the logo for the 2004 National Flyin held in Reg11. I organized, almost single handedly, that fly-in and 7 other years now.
I joined USHGA in 1976, in Reg3..
Having "TexasOpen" fly-in here does a great service to assist the WRE and BigSpring events and hang gliding in general. I do not fly paragliders or SW. I opened the door for paragliders the first year, '02.
Even though the world record flights go over my house, the pilot population here in SW Tx. is probably the lowest in the US.
Ryan's comment about "wanting help" struck a nerve with me.
I have asked for help from the Assn, time and time again.
Unanswered
Highest rated...
Topics
Doesnt mean its really a soaring aircraft.
