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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1842
Location: San Diego
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 Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:05 pm Post subject: |
 #281 |
OK, for everyone else (purely as an exercise since "Yosoytupadre" is going to fix this for us anyway), I just wanted to explain my take on the impact of Gary Fogel's resignation...
The Council has 7 member clubs:
3 RC: (AMA, Gulls, and TPSSS)
2 SP: (SSA, AGCSC)
2 UL: (USHPA, SDHGPA) - HG/PG lumped together as "ultralights" 
Gary Fogel was the TPSSS reprensetative, but he was also the Council Chairperson (which is elected by the Council once each year). Since Gary has left the Council, Angelo will be replacing him as the new TPSSS representative. But I don't think that will automatically make him the chairperson. So there is a chance of electing someone from one of the HG/PG (oops, "ultralight") sports as the new chair of the Council.
But given that there are 3 RC clubs voting and only 2 HG/PG (oops, "ultralight") clubs voting, what's the likelihood that we could get either an HG or PG representative on the Council? Not very good is it?
Can anyone see why Gary Fogel has been resisting adding the Hawks? Can anyone see that Brad Hall and the USHPA EC were duped into opposing the addition of the Hawks? They were duped into sabotaging their own sport!
I think this fits: "They cut off their nose to spite their face".
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders • Join the Torrey Hawks • Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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BubbleBoy
1 thumbs up
Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 3002
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| Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:56 pm Post subject: |
#282 |
Those who are doing nothing always love to tell those who are doing something that they are doing it wrong.
JB |
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Yosoytupadre
2 thumbs up
Joined: 07 Jan 2010
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:53 am Post subject: |
#283 |
| BubbleBoy wrote: |
Those who are doing nothing always love to tell those who are doing something that they are doing it wrong.
JB |
Excellent self-assessment, BubbleBoy. Everybody brings joy to a (chat)room. Some when they enter, some when they leave. |
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Yosoytupadre
2 thumbs up
Joined: 07 Jan 2010
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:39 am Post subject: |
#284 |
| bobk wrote: |
| Please don't stand in the way of "Yosoytupadre" because he or she is going to balance the Soaring Council using the secret skills learned on "Kung Fu". (psssst, we're still waiting) |
Since you've asked, I'll help. But it is not possible for me to solve this. Distance, time, and my choices about which things to work on based upon what is most important to me prevent this.
I can suggest ways for you to have a greater chance of getting what you desire. So here are some suggestions.
1. When asking others to give something of value up - find a way for it to be replaced with something of equal or greater value.
2. When asking for something - find reasons why that does not conflict with the needs and desires of those in a position to grant it
What's that mean? If you want parity for Px / Hx pilots - don't focus on your personal power (size of your slices). Focus on how to get more HG pilots access without affecting the people making money or the pilots who already enjoy the rights to fly there.
For example, a trial program with H3s in limited quantities who purchase a premium pass paid to the USHPA or shared with operator at the site. Maybe only on weekdays. Is it fair, not really, but it:
1. Demonstrates respect for other users of the site and their needs
2. Provides access to more HG pilots and that wins you goodwill with them
3. Provides a path for further changes and improvements down the road - including creating a permanent program with better terms
There are also benefits to the respect that you would receive from the USHPA by working in the interests of all parties. This would be a path toward greater acceptance of you in the leadership circles that make the decisions.
This is an example. One for you and others to consider. My assistance comes not in solving the problems but in showing better ways to approach them. Solving the problem is best done by those who stand to gain the most and who are most passionate about it.
Last edited by Yosoytupadre on Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:51 am Post subject: |
#285 |
| Yosoytupadre wrote: |
| BubbleBoy wrote: |
Those who are doing nothing always love to tell those who are doing something that they are doing it wrong.
JB |
Excellent self-assessment, BubbleBoy. Everybody brings joy to a (chat)room. Some when they enter, some when they leave. |
BubbleBoy has put a ton of hours into working with Ushpa.
He is also running the Ed Levin speed gliding contest coming this month.
Your self assessment snipe is absurd. BubbleBoy has done plenty, what have YOU done other than imply he hasnt done anything which is obviously false???
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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AIRTHUG
3 thumbs up
Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 6159
Location: Point of the Mountain, Draper, UT
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:06 am Post subject: |
#286 |
| bobk wrote: |
But given that there are 3 RC clubs voting and only 2 HG/PG (oops, "ultralight") clubs voting, what's the likelihood that we could get either an HG or PG representative on the Council? Not very good is it? |
this paragraph operates under false premise... First, it assumes that each club will vote for their own sport, rather than based on who will do the best job. This also implies that these people all see being the head of the TPSC as a power move. Not everyone thinks like you, Bob.
The idea that it would be advantagous to have a HG rep heading the council implies that this person is not making impartial decisions. If some WERE impartial, it shouldn't matter what form of aviation they partake...
Why not solve this power strugle by electing whoever could do the best job of being impartial (no matter which club they're from)?
_________________
Ryan Voight
BLOG: www.AIRTHUG.com
VIDEOS: http://vimeo.com/AIRTHUG |
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HGXC
1 thumbs up
Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 2921
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:25 am Post subject: |
#287 |
| flyhigh013 wrote: |
| bobk wrote: |
But given that there are 3 RC clubs voting and only 2 HG/PG (oops, "ultralight") clubs voting, what's the likelihood that we could get either an HG or PG representative on the Council? Not very good is it? |
this paragraph operates under false premise... First, it assumes that each club will vote for their own sport, rather than based on who will do the best job. This also implies that these people all see being the head of the TPSC as a power move. Not everyone thinks like you, Bob.
The idea that it would be advantagous to have a HG rep heading the council implies that this person is not making impartial decisions. If some WERE impartial, it shouldn't matter what form of aviation they partake...
Why not solve this power strugle by electing whoever could do the best job of being impartial (no matter which club they're from)? |
Let me unequivocally state that EVERYBODY does EVERYTHING in life as some power move of some sort. Sometimes this awareness comes with age sometimes experience and of course there is always that rive in Egypt.
Dennis
_________________
Organ Donation Saves Lives
Glider = ATOS B-V, Rating = H5 |
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FPeel
3 thumbs up
Joined: 28 Aug 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: San Jose, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:37 am Post subject: |
#288 |
| Yosoytupadre wrote: |
I can suggest ways for you to have a greater chance of getting what you desire. So here are some suggestions.
1. When asking others to give something of value up - find a way for it to be replaced with something of equal or greater value.
2. When asking for something - find reasons why that does not conflict with the needs and desires of those in a position to grant it |
Pretty standard negotiation strategy and a good suggestion. I would add one thing regarding the use of "value" here and that is "perception."
The recipient's perception of value is extremely important, so look at their motivations and match the value to their needs, not your own. Probably goes without saying, but, hey you never know.
The "gaining a toehold" approach is also a good idea. Sometimes these things take time and lots of baby steps. Any movement forward is in the positive direction. Sitting still goes nowhere.
It does suck that the situation ever reached the point where HG pilots allowed themselves to be almost pushed out of the site. But the pilots who fly there did and the damage is done. Accept it and move on. It is what it is, not what it was.
| flyhigh013 wrote: |
| this paragraph operates under false premise... First, it assumes that each club will vote for their own sport, rather than based on who will do the best job. This also implies that these people all see being the head of the TPSC as a power move. Not everyone thinks like you, Bob. |
Not everyone thinks like you, Ryan (snippy comment, isn't it?). If you consider the possible motivations of those sitting on the council today, as well as the history, it's not a false premise or unreasonable logic. They have no motivation to include someone who ONLY represents HG. It contributes nothing to their needs and further dilutes their influence.
Which makes developing a strategy difficult. It's hard to negotiate with someone who holds all the cards.
_________________
"If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space." - Anonymous
Last edited by FPeel on Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Wingspan34
2 thumbs up
Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 5652
Location: Central NY
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:02 am Post subject: |
#289 |
| flyhigh013 wrote: |
| . . . Why not solve this power struggle by electing whoever could do the best job of being impartial (no matter which club they're from)? |
Ryan,
Your solution involves a great idea. However, even if all (or most of) the parties on the Soaring Counsel are themselves fair minded, they can still have many good reasons for voting against the interests of our group (HGs). Those voting may also think different people are the most impartial. Giving these (likely) dynamics then your proposed solution doesn't work.
Also, the fact that hang gliding's interests are UNDER represented, and that the RC gliders guys interests are OVER represented, there is already an established, built in, lack of impartiality.
And I doubt the established negative "attitude" of Gary Fogel (toward BobK and the Hawks) will dissolve with his departure. But who knows.
Basically, Ryan, your above comment ALSO suffers from a false assumption. That being that the majority of the Soaring Counsel will all vote in an unbiased manner for the same impartial person - who will then act in the best, or better, interests of the local hang gliding faction . . . i.e., someone who will endorse the inclusion of the Torrey Hawks to the Soaring Counsel.
The historic record shows that your presumption may not be very realistic. Plus, remember that no one here has any influence on how anyone else on the Soaring Counsel votes - because no one here is ON the Soaring Counsel.
_________________
WW 141 Fusion SP
Master rated, First flight - May 1975
FL, PL, PA, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TURB, X-C |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1842
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:24 pm Post subject: |
#290 |
| Yosoytupadre wrote: |
| bobk wrote: |
| Please don't stand in the way of "Yosoytupadre" because he or she is going to balance the Soaring Council using the secret skills learned on "Kung Fu". (psssst, we're still waiting) |
Since you've asked, I'll help. But it is not possible for me to solve this. Distance, time, and my choices about which things to work on based upon what is most important to me prevent this.
I can suggest ways for you to have a greater chance of getting what you desire. So here are some suggestions.
1. When asking others to give something of value up - find a way for it to be replaced with something of equal or greater value.
2. When asking for something - find reasons why that does not conflict with the needs and desires of those in a position to grant it
What's that mean? If you want parity for Px / Hx pilots - don't focus on your personal power (size of your slices). Focus on how to get more HG pilots access without affecting the people making money or the pilots who already enjoy the rights to fly there.
For example, a trial program with H3s in limited quantities who purchase a premium pass paid to the USHPA or shared with operator at the site. Maybe only on weekdays. Is it fair, not really, but it:
1. Demonstrates respect for other users of the site and their needs
2. Provides access to more HG pilots and that wins you goodwill with them
2. Provides a path for further changes and improvements down the road - including creating a permanent program with better terms
There are also benefits to the respect that you would receive from the USHPA by working in the interests of all parties. This would be a path toward greater acceptance of you in the leadership circles that make the decisions.
This is an example. One for you and others to consider. My assistance comes not in solving the problems but in showing better ways to approach them. Solving the problem is best done by those who stand to gain the most and who are most passionate about it. |
There are two problems with your arguments.
You say that to gain something of value, you must offer to give something of greater or equal value. What did Rosa Parks give up that was of greater value than what she got? She didn't give up anything because she shouldn't have to give up something to correct an injustice. So your premise is false right there. I would agree with your assumptions and suggestions if we were starting on a level playing field, but we're not. You (and others) have suggested working toward specific things (like Hx/Px parity). But you forget that with the current Soaring Council, we're not playing that game on a level field. So we always have to struggle uphill to gain yardage on every issue. Now would our efforts be better spent struggling uphill play after play, or would they be better spent trying to level that playing field? I focus on the big picture problem of the playing field myself.
The second problem with your suggestions is that they're based on the false premise that the people who've been supporting the current imbalance on the Soaring Council are somehow inclined to be fair. They're not. They sit around that Council room at every meeting and they know that there are 3 RC clubs and only 2 clubs for HG/PG pilots combined. But none of them have done anything about it for the following reasons:
RC Clubs - They're the majority. They will enjoy that privilege for as long as they can. They may feel a little guilty, but until someone really shines a spot light on this imbalance they're not inclined to do anything about it. I've been doing my best to put some light on this problem, and I think that was a big reason that Gary stepped down. But remember that stepping down is not giving in. It is unlikely that his replacement will want to balance the Council either, and this change is more like bringing in fresh troops than admitting there's a problem. But we'll see how that goes on January 18th, when I again request a seat for the Hawks.
Sailplane Clubs - They currently hold 2/7ths of the Council. If we add another HG/PG club, they'll be down to 2/8ths. That's a net loss. It's not as big a deal to them, and the AGCSC did say that if USHPA supported adding the Hawks that they would vote along with USHPA. I believe the SSA would take the same approach if USHPA asked them to support adding another hang gliding club to balance the Council. I think they are taking a fairly reasonable position given that they're sailplane clubs and it's not their charter to gain more HG/PG representation on the Council.
SDHGPA - This is the Jebb club. They've been ruled by PG pilots for as long as I've been a member. Their membership is mostly PG due to the long long history of PG only training at Torrey. They have supported whatever Jebb (or his replacements) have wanted. They didn't even want the Soaring Council to be reactivated because that would challenge the Jebb's absolute power at the site. In fact they chose Gabe Jebb as their representative to the Soaring Council. That says it all right there. More recently, their representative (Jim Wright) argued that the concessionaire could charge whatever they wanted for visiting pilots to fly tandem flights. The lease says they should charge $25 for "outside tandem" fees, but they recently tried to charge David Beardslee $100 (per flight!!), and Jim Wright supported that position. Again, that tells us who they support.
USHPA - USHPA is the only entity on that Council who has a clear charter and even an obligation to work for fair representation for our sports and our Chapters. But they have been Jebb's puppet as well. Brad Hall was given the initial responsibility for picking USHPA's representative, and he let David Jebb do it for him even though he knew Jebb had a clear conflict of interest that would have prevented him from making that decision.
So those are the players. They know the Council is imbalanced, and yet they do nothing because it's in each of their best interests to keep it as it is. Gary Fogel has known all along that USHPA should be demanding more representation by adding the Hawks. But he manipulated Brad Hall like a puppet to fight within USHPA to keep USHPA from requesting the representation that our sports deserve. And our "great leaders" on the EC went along with it by issuing their "gag order" preventing me (as a Regional Director) from even asking the questions that might shed light on this imbalance.
Politics is a messy business, and platitudes look nice on paper. But there are times when nice talk gets you nowhere. There were people who argued that all we needed to do to prevent WWII was to give up a little more and a little more. If we'd have given up much more, we might not have been able to survive. And how well did giving up little concessions help us anyway? The fact is there are people who want all of the pie. They don't want to give to get. They just want to take, and they feast on people who buy into the false "feel good" arguments that you have made.
But let me blindly ignore all of my own arguments, and ask the wise Yosoytupadre: What can we give to the Soaring Council of value that will cause them to give us a seat at the table?
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders • Join the Torrey Hawks • Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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gluesniffer
3 thumbs up
Joined: 11 Aug 2009
Posts: 547
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:03 pm Post subject: |
#291 |
a guy who says he is my father said
| Quote: |
| Focus on how to get more HG pilots access without affecting the people making money or the pilots who already enjoy the rights to fly there. |
ie - don't mess with the p 0's or the people teaching the baggots |
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Yosoytupadre
2 thumbs up
Joined: 07 Jan 2010
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:26 pm Post subject: |
#292 |
| bobk wrote: |
| There are two problems with your arguments. |
There is no argument, only constructive suggestions. Because we share a common goal.
| bobk wrote: |
| What did Rosa Parks give up that was of greater value than what she got? She didn't give up anything because she shouldn't have to give up something to correct an injustice. So your premise is false right there. |
It wasn't about the bus, it was about creating the thin end of the wedge that would pry apart an injustice - segregation. It was the first, small, principled step that allowed the injustice to be acknowledge, corrected and no longer feared by those with a vested interest in the status quo. This led to greater integration. A fine lesson in how to approach a large problem with a first small step.
Another important observation is that she didn't argue with the judge. She respectfully asked the judge to do what was right.
| bobk wrote: |
| But let me blindly ignore all of my own arguments, and ask the wise Yosoytupadre: What can we give to the Soaring Council of value that will cause them to give us a seat at the table? |
Those whom you oppose continue to sit quietly as if they were following Napoleon's advice: Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
To overcome you must follow the guidance of Sun Tsu - To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill.
The simple answer to your question: Give them what they value most - Respect
The complex answer is that a seat at the table is not the final results that you seek. It is the benefits that the seat would provide which you should focus upon.
Articulate those in a positive and constructive way and support for your ideas will grow. |
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old newbie
3 thumbs up
Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 812
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:47 pm Post subject: |
#293 |
Rosa Parks, I did not realize how poorly hangs are being treated.
Lets see she was arrested and convicted of violating the laws of segregation, gave up anonymity, freedom/ jail time, personal safety.
What do you have to offer? You could always sacrifice Beardsley but I would miss him but then again I might be able to fly Torrey with a H3 rating, nah not worth it. You would probably also need a permit for the sacrifice.
Nice to see some positive suggestions on this topic, now if we could just delete the ten pages of bickering about Ryan.
Thought I might get to fly the coast today but stable & offshore, Tuesday I fly down to Mexico.
Steve |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1842
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:19 pm Post subject: |
#294 |
| Yosoytupadre wrote: |
| bobk wrote: |
| There are two problems with your arguments. |
There is no argument, only constructive suggestions. Because we share a common goal.
| bobk wrote: |
| What did Rosa Parks give up that was of greater value than what she got? She didn't give up anything because she shouldn't have to give up something to correct an injustice. So your premise is false right there. |
It wasn't about the bus, it was about creating the thin end of the wedge that would pry apart an injustice - segregation. It was the first, small, principled step that allowed the injustice to be acknowledge, corrected and no longer feared by those with a vested interest in the status quo. This led to greater integration. A fine lesson in how to approach a large problem with a first small step.
Another important observation is that she didn't argue with the judge. She respectfully asked the judge to do what was right.
| bobk wrote: |
| But let me blindly ignore all of my own arguments, and ask the wise Yosoytupadre: What can we give to the Soaring Council of value that will cause them to give us a seat at the table? |
Those whom you oppose continue to sit quietly as if they were following Napoleon's advice: Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
To overcome you must follow the guidance of Sun Tsu - To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill.
The simple answer to your question: Give them what they value most - Respect |
I think many people drew the wrong message from the "Kung Fu" TV series. You are correct that to subdue the enemy without fighting is the greatest skill - but there are times when that is simply not possible. Even with all the preachings of peace and harmony in that series, did you ever notice that nothing seemed to get accomplished until Kwai Chang Caine kicked a little butt? I'm sorry, and I wish it were different, but that's a fundamental reality of life that you again want to whitewash with platitudes.
You mentioned giving respect. But what you may not have known is that I gave Gary Fogel and the Council tremendous respect in the beginning. I defended the Council when the local PG crowd tried to shoot it down. I used to pay for the meeting room out of my own pocket and never asked to be reimbursed. But did it lead Gary Fogel to value and respect our club and our efforts? No. He was happy to accept those gifts as long as he didn't have to give any ground. We communicated regularly and were on very good terms for all of 2007 until I asked to have the Hawks added to the Council in September. All of a sudden, he wasn't so friendly and began to dodge my questions and not return my calls. So I gave plenty and it was taken. But that never guarantees that it will be returned. And in this case it was not. Please let me know if you challenge any of that, because I have ample email evidence of my efforts.
You mentioned that Rosa Parks didn't argue with the judge. But she sure did argue with the bus driver!! She argued to the point of saying "no" and forcing him to call the police!! Do you see the difference? Besides, I'm not sure that she (or her lawyer) didn't argue with the judge anyway. That's how a case is won - by making carefully reasoned arguments that cannot be overcome by your opponent.
When I show my now famous pie charts (thanks for the opportunity  ) the opposition grows silent or goes away. They don't do that to make me "self destruct". They do that because any further argument on their part makes them look ridiculous. Silence is their best stragegy, and that's why Gary Fogel refused to respond to me month after month after month. I believe it was our persistence and our comments on this forum (ratcheting up the heat) that eventually led to his departure. We'll see if the rest of the Council is able to benefit from that lesson.
Now on to a few slices of political pie. Do you agree that this balance on the Torrey Pines Soaring Council should be corrected to include more HG/PG representation? We're not talking about HOW to get there. That's a whole seprate topic. We're asking if this is a fair arrangement for people of different colors on a Montgomery Alabama bus. Is it fair or not? If we can agree on that, then we can talk strategy all you want.
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders • Join the Torrey Hawks • Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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Wingspan34
2 thumbs up
Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 5652
Location: Central NY
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:30 pm Post subject: |
#295 |
| bobk wrote: |
| . . . What can we give to the Soaring Council of value that will cause them to give us a seat at the table? |
What about a big fat monetary bribe?  Under the table, made out to the Torrey Pines Historical Society. Current links to the TP Historical Society take you to Jebbville . . . oh, . . . or should I say,  to the Torrey Pines Gliderport web site. 
It's all about money and/or power after all.
_________________
WW 141 Fusion SP
Master rated, First flight - May 1975
FL, PL, PA, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TURB, X-C |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1842
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:33 pm Post subject: |
#296 |
| old newbie wrote: |
Rosa Parks, I did not realize how poorly hangs are being treated.
Lets see she was arrested and convicted of violating the laws of segregation, gave up anonymity, freedom/ jail time, personal safety.
What do you have to offer? You could always sacrifice Beardsley but I would miss him but then again I might be able to fly Torrey with a H3 rating, nah not worth it. You would probably also need a permit for the sacrifice.
Nice to see some positive suggestions on this topic, now if we could just delete the ten pages of bickering about Ryan.
Thought I might get to fly the coast today but stable & offshore, Tuesday I fly down to Mexico.
Steve |
Maybe you didn't know that I have two different accounts of people being physically punched or beaten by the concessionaire or his employees (one case is a written statement and the other won a settlement and is no longer allowed to talk about it). Maybe you didn't know that the police were called to remove David Beardslee from Torrey after he had signed in, paid, and actually had a reciept in his hands. Maybe you didn't know that David Jebb called the police to have me removed from Torrey after he threatened me. My flight voice recorder captured him saying he was going to knock me on my butt!! Maybe you didn't know that he told the lifeguards to cite me if I landed on the beach, but he has asked them to let his own students do the same thing without any penalty.
Maybe you just don't even know what you're talking about at all?
Steve, I'm sorry to be rough on you, but you really don't know what was going on at Torrey. You don't know the level of fear that had been created. Jebb was a bully, and he bullied and mistreated lots of people. And it didn't go away when he left. It's still there, instilled in so many of the people he trained and brought into the sport of paragliding. There's a toxic attitude among a group of paraglider pilots at Torrey that I have never seen anywhere else - ever.
Again, I'm sorry to be rough on you, but unless you've really spent a lot of time at that site during the Jebb years, you are speaking without knowing. I'll leave it at that.
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders • Join the Torrey Hawks • Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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old newbie
3 thumbs up
Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 812
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:02 pm Post subject: |
#297 |
Bob anyone who lasted more then a couple of days here knows all about it. Believe or not Rosa Parks was not the only black women discriminated against, in fact Montgomery was not the only place blacks were discriminated against.
You don't see the humor in comparing hangs at Torrey to the civil rights issue? Learn to laugh at yourself a little.
From what I experienced with friends(hang&bag) when flying there I can only assume that there are many who just show up and fly hangs (or bags) with out problems? We always have. I am not saying there is not a problem.
Steve |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1842
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:21 pm Post subject: |
#298 |
| old newbie wrote: |
| I am not saying there is not a problem. |
Good. Then let's figure out how to fix it.
I place a much higher value on people actually doing things than on telling other people how to do (or not do) things.
Bob K.
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P.S. On another topic you suggested an important aspect of growing the sport:
| old newbie wrote: |
| Having strong clubs is the best way to help keep new pilots and help them along. Clubs seem to cycle up and down one of the reason is the same people tend to do all the work and some pilots have less time or need for the club as they progress. If you want hang gliding to grow help your local club. |
So why is USHPA trying to squash the Hawks? We've taken some very positive steps to increase hang gliding in San Diego. We've attended community fund raisers. We've had a very successful booth where we flew dozens of non-pilots in an HG simulator. We've been holding monthly fly-ins at Torrey where our instructors give FREE tandem flights to our non-H4 members (H1s, H2s, and H3s). We've done a lot and yet USHPA turns its back on us. Could it be that .... politics is getting in their way of doing the right thing?
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_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders • Join the Torrey Hawks • Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs
Last edited by bobk on Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:29 pm Post subject: |
#299 |
I see Ryan is "helping" again
Ryan, there are people on the council aggressively fighting to keep the HG club out. Have you sat in on the council to observe this? I have.
You are operating under a bunch of false premises yourself. If you think the people already on the council are impartial, then that is mere ignorance on your part. Bob is looking for a check and balance by adding HG interests to the council, since they dont currently exist. Something you only pay lip service too.
| flyhigh013 wrote: |
| bobk wrote: |
But given that there are 3 RC clubs voting and only 2 HG/PG (oops, "ultralight") clubs voting, what's the likelihood that we could get either an HG or PG representative on the Council? Not very good is it? |
this paragraph operates under false premise... First, it assumes that each club will vote for their own sport, rather than based on who will do the best job. This also implies that these people all see being the head of the TPSC as a power move. Not everyone thinks like you, Bob.
The idea that it would be advantagous to have a HG rep heading the council implies that this person is not making impartial decisions. If some WERE impartial, it shouldn't matter what form of aviation they partake...
Why not solve this power strugle by electing whoever could do the best job of being impartial (no matter which club they're from)? |
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H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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FPeel
3 thumbs up
Joined: 28 Aug 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: San Jose, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:36 pm Post subject: |
#300 |
| bobk wrote: |
| You mentioned that Rosa Parks didn't argue with the judge. But she sure did argue with the bus driver!! |
Rosa Parks knew when to stop making waves. Bob, you've already argued with the bus driver. The police were called (literally and figuratively). Now you're arguing with the judges. Is that wise? Using this analogy, what would Rosa have accomplished if, after drawing attention to the issue, she argued with the judge?
Don't think I'm switching sides; that wouldn't be possible since I never picked one. My motivations have been and are my own. But those motives are best served by seeing you stay in the fight. May I suggest that stonewalling people who are trying to help you isn't the way?
I love old adages because they say so much with so few words and there's one that fits this conversation oh so well: "There's more than one way to skin a cat." I believe Mr. Orange is trying to hand you a new knife. Before you turn it down you might take it in your hand and see how it feels. It might not be as exciting as the singing sword your wielding now, but it may be better suited to the task at hand and far more effective than falling on your own sword.
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"If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space." - Anonymous |
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