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FPeel
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Joined: 28 Aug 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: San Jose, CA
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 Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:34 pm Post subject: |
 #141 |
Here's the link I found that referenced the TPSC.
http://www.nps.gov/history/NR/travel/aviation/tor.htm
Note that it's located on the National Park Services Web site. It's actually a quite interesting read.
Now this is where things are going to get more curioser and curioser than you will want. At the bottom of that Web page is a link to the Torrey Pines Glider Port Historical Society. Click on it.
You aren't going to like this...
Now, go look into which charter the city has on file 'cause I think you may have been scammed. I could be wrong, but...
BTW, you have to know this thread is being watched.
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bobk
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Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1842
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:14 am Post subject: |
#142 |
| QuienesSuPa wrote: |
As for my conversation with my Regional Director. Not much new came from it that hasn't already been said, or at least surmised in my own head.
Anyone out there wanting to get answers, call your RD. They'll give it to you straight and I expect some of you will be surprised. Also, I'm not a spokesperson for USHPA, so if you have questions on what I've said, call them. USHPA is very open to talk about anything and everything IMHO. Unless your cornering them of course. |
I agree that people should speak with their RDs. But also realize that you may be getting a "prepackaged USHPA Party Line". I could say more, but I'll leave it at that.
| QuienesSuPa wrote: |
| He spoke of a bazillion emails with Bob about this issue and has tried to figure out a solution and put forth a hand. It sounds like Bob's been in severe contact with everyone over there about this issue (like bazillions of emails). SO, cool, "an agent of change that USHPA is afraid of" as SG puts it. I'm all for change and for someone passionate to make it happen. |
I should call you on "a bazillion emails" ... only joking.  But it's true that I've been quite persistent (and consistent) in my requests (see "good cop, bad cop" below).
| QuienesSuPa wrote: |
| However, in spite of Bob's initial great communication and in spite of open ears on USHPA's part, it seemed to come down to a my way, or the highway resolution with little flexibility. I also got the impression that the RD's feel threatened by Bob if they don't accept his side of the argument eventually. Since, in person, Bob's open about going online with so and so's name to make sure everyone knows so and so does this or that. Either way, they seem to have developed a gut reaction to suspect Bob's intentions and to expect that answering even more questions will just get their words used against them. |
I'm not sure how open the ears were, but that's going to have to be a matter of opinion I suppose. But I do have a problem with the "flexibility" quote. There's a whole topic on the Oz Report where Rich Hass claimed (in his opening post) that I was inflexible about the Accountability Amendment. I ended up showing him from both our own public postings on the Oz Report and in our email discussions where I had very clearly suggested a range of choices. I started out right from the beginning with a compromising position (requiring one Director rather than none) and I stated very clearly that I would support requiring 2 Directors as well. And I might have supported 3 or 4 or 5 if it had been proposed. But neither Rich Hass nor any other RD would even second the issue to open it for discussion or to propose their own alternatives. So that "inflexibility" line is very similar to Ryan's claiming that I said that I spoke for all of USHPA. Neither is true, yet they continue to be heard from various USHPA sources (RDs?).
You also mentioned that they suspect my intentions. Could anyone provide a theory for that? Am I an instructor operating a school? Am I a competition organizer trying to herd everyone to my own competitions? Am I a site operator or an equipment manufacturer? Am I conspiring so I can rise to be President of USHPA and rule the world? I mean, seriously, what the ..... do they think my intentions are? Could it be that I'm just what they keep asking for - a regular pilot who got involved to make flying better? No. There must be some hidden motive. Maybe if the board and Ryan both work those search engines hard enough they can figure out what I'm really up to [sinister chuckle].
| QuienesSuPa wrote: |
| From other conversation on other issues USHPA is facing, it's kind of a tragedy that this issue is draining our representatives time and good will when they could devote more energy to making sure the FAA doesn't take the US airspace away or other matters. Sure, Torrey needs some thought, but it shouldn't take so much effort if the issue is serious. |
This is actually what is so sad. If the USHPA leadership (and I mostly mean Lisa Tate, Paul Montville, and the EC) could just step back and ask what the heck they're doing, they might realize that they're wasting tons of resources and a lot of good will to accomplish these things:
- Keep Directors out of EC meetings
- Keep members from knowing how Directors have voted
- Keep a popular USHPA Chapter from gaining representation on a Council where our sports are under-represented
- Keep USHPA Regional Directors from signing as Regional Directors when requesting information related to their jobs
REALLY?!? Why would they spend a dime to oppose any of those? Shouldn't they be rewarding me for coming up with those ideas rather than black-balling me?
| QuienesSuPa wrote: |
So. Either Bob, your tactics aren't getting this done and it's maybe time to team up with someone more tactical, or the solution you're shooting for hasn't got legs.
I suggest the first. You've got a wealth of knowlege and experience in this obviously, but I think you would go far to have an empowering individual to help you out.
Good luck,
BJ |
I mostly agree with you here. One way or another I have failed to get some pretty simple and obvious things past the Board. It may be (for all the reasons you've listed) that they're not going to pass anything I suggest - just to spite me. But while I think that's a big part of it (i.e. they didn't want to pass any threshold for open voting because that would look like a "win" for me), I also think they are just opposed to a lot of the things I would like to accomplish. There is a lot of secrecy on that Board, and even as a Director they are trying to shut me out.
But most of all, I agree with your last sentence. I feel like I'm one half of a "good cop, bad cop" routine (anyone want to guess which half?). I really could use another more senior Director to step forward and give the "Yes, Bob has pestered us, but he is right" speech. So far, I haven't had any volunteers. BJ, if you have a good relationship with your Director, I certainly wouldn't mind you asking. The same goes for everyone else. Those are some good goals listed above and anyone who can help us get there would be doing the sport a big favor.
| Sky_Walker wrote: |
| I really appreciate BobK's passion on this issue and I think we all can agree that we want whats best for hanggliding at Torrey and all the other flying sites. But at this point it seems like he has become toxic, too many people stop listening when he starts talking. I think its time for people who agree with Bob to step up and start being noisy as well. If they were getting gazillions of emails from all of us instead of just from Bob, I think they might have a different perspective. The current methods of attacking this problem don't seem to have been very effective other than raising awareness of the existence of the problem ... Whats next ? |
I couldn't agree more. I usually make the analogy that I've been the "tip of the spear" for reforms, and the tip always gets dull first. In many ways, I'm sure I have gotten a lot of people angry. That's why they send in diplomats to negotiate the peace. The soldiers who won the war just aren't going to be the best negotiators.
So as I mentioned above, I really could use some other people (Directors or not) stepping forward to ask for these things. And again, any help is welcomed.
Thanks for taking the time to post. I appreciated the thoughts from both of you.
Bob Kuczewski
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders • Join the Torrey Hawks • Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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bobk
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Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1842
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:56 am Post subject: |
#143 |
| FPeel wrote: |
Here's the link I found that referenced the TPSC.
http://www.nps.gov/history/NR/travel/aviation/tor.htm
Note that it's located on the National Park Services Web site. It's actually a quite interesting read.
Now this is where things are going to get more curioser and curioser than you will want. At the bottom of that Web page is a link to the Torrey Pines Glider Port Historical Society. Click on it.
You aren't going to like this...
Now, go look into which charter the city has on file 'cause I think you may have been scammed. I could be wrong, but...
BTW, you have to know this thread is being watched. |
That link is very funny. 
As for the Soaring Council charter (or by-laws) the 1990 version (available here: http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/Torrey_Pines_Soaring_Council) also seems to be signed, so the link to the 1978 version may just be out of date. So that's not absolute proof, but I think it's time to start asking some hard questions about this Soaring Council and their clubs.
The interesting thing is that's exactly what USHPA slapped me down for doing. I was just asking some questions that might show that the Soaring Council was biased against our own sports (both hang gliding and paragliding), and that's when Rich Hass sent me his nasty letter that has derailed me for many months (eventually leading to all the mess about EC meetings and lawsuits). Why would USHPA want to defend Gary Fogel's unbalanced Soaring Council? What's in it for them?
Someday I hope we'll look back on this puzzle and everything will make sense. But it doesn't quite yet.
Thanks for digging. Please post anything else you find or send me a PM.
Bob K.
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders • Join the Torrey Hawks • Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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ChattaroyMan
3 thumbs up
Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 1831
Location: Chattaroy, WA -USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:42 am Post subject: |
#144 |
bobk wrote:
| Quote: |
Maybe I'll meet you in the spring!!
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Thanks for the Falcon offer. One way or another I'll contact you when I get to SD. I'll show up on one of the "Second Sunday's at Torrey" and/or any other times that I can part from family stuff and the conditions look good. Before I can have a fully functional H4 back I'll need to get together with a USHPA instructor (since mine has been off the table for 27-ish years). Last time I was a full USHGA member was in 82 or 83 and last time I flew a HG was in the fall of 1981. I believe I'll be getting my old # back 16529. I'll likely be ordering a Sport 2 soon. Hard telling if I'll have one by March/April. It'll be my pleasure just to chat and watch some flying.[/quote]
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U2 160 • Chattaroy, WA - USA |
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Wingspan34
2 thumbs up
Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 5652
Location: Central NY
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| Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:06 am Post subject: |
#145 |
Gee, the Torrey Pines Glider Port Historical Society actually has its own web page. Here's the link: http://www.tpghs.org/
 Soooooo informative!
This link was listed under a heading for Torrey Pines Glider Port (near the bottom) of this web page: http://www.maintour.com/socal/sdg_torreypines.htm
Bob, or anyone else interested, you may want to go to the San Diego Historical Society and ask them for info on the TP Glider Port Historical Society. If it's a real entity, they will very likely know. Here's their Web site: https://www.sandiegohistory.org/
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WW 141 Fusion SP
Master rated, First flight - May 1975
FL, PL, PA, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TURB, X-C |
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TomGalvin
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Posts: 3565
Location: ............... Pagosa Springs, Colorado
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Wingspan34
2 thumbs up
Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 5652
Location: Central NY
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| Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:47 am Post subject: |
#147 |
Thanks Tom. And here is the web page of (once upon a time) web publications of the Torrey Pines Gliderport Historical Society:
http://tinyurl.com/yas2nn3
It's pretty much the same web page right along.
They do have a PO Box address and a phone number. If you call, I wonder who answers? (858) 455-6429
_________________
WW 141 Fusion SP
Master rated, First flight - May 1975
FL, PL, PA, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TURB, X-C |
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FPeel
3 thumbs up
Joined: 28 Aug 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: San Jose, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:19 am Post subject: |
#148 |
| Wingspan34 wrote: |
| If you call, I wonder who answers? (858) 455-6429 |
Want to know what's on the other end of a phone number? Call it!
That number is for a company in San Diego called Natural Selection. According to their Web site "Natural Selection, Inc. was founded in 1993 by Dr. Lawrence J. Fogel, Dr. David B. Fogel and Mrs. Eva Fogel. Natural Selection, Inc. relies on many technologies to address difficult problems such as factory scheduling, agent-based combat simulations, homeland security, and drug design."
When I explained my call was to the "Torrey Pines Gliderport Historical Society" the response was "one of our staff is a member". I was transferred to Gary Fogel's voicemail.
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"If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space." - Anonymous |
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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| Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:20 am Post subject: |
#149 |
DOH
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H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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QuienesSuPa
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Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 362
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| Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:16 am Post subject: omg |
#150 |
Wow.
I guess it could be worse, though I'm not sure how. Holy crap.
BJ
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Sport 2 and Atos-VR |
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Wingspan34
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Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 5652
Location: Central NY
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| Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:07 am Post subject: |
#151 |
It seems that the Torrey Pines Soaring Counsel and Torrey Pines Gliderport Historical Society are basically "Fogel Family Clubs". 
To be fair, I found that Larry Fogel began the Torrey Pines Soaring Counsel in 1978. The details of his efforts are given here:
http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/museum/bio/Fogel.pdf
This from page #2
| Quote: |
| Most importantly, Larry founded the Torrey Pines Soaring Council (TPSC) in 1978 as an advisory board to the City of San Diego Parks and Recreation Department. This forum was created to establish rules for the flight park and convey recommendations on site use and improvement directly from the users to the city of San Diego. The TPSC was instrumental in organizing the safety of flight operations at the site. Before the council, the airspace was crowed with hang gliders, RC sailplanes and full-scale sailplanes competing for the same air. The council allowed representatives from the different organizations to voice their concerns and work on compromises with safety as a primary concern to all users. The City of San Diego Parks and Recreation Department has incorporated the advice of the TPSC in its regulation of the gliderport. Larry Fogel served on this council as AMA representative from 1978 to 2006. |
Clearly, Larry Fogel's idea was to communicate with the San Diego City Parks and Recreation Department about the (what could be claimed to be the "fair" and) equitable use of the Torrey Pines Gliderport air space.
How is it that things have degraded to the current state?
The early versions of the lease(s), to which Bob has posted links, also refer to the San Diego City Manager, and the Parks and Recreation Department, as if the goal of the TPSC was to inform the city about the best (fairest?) ways for the facility to be used by the soaring community.
I think I'd be showing the current City Manager the original paperwork for the creation of the TPSC and then explaining that it is currently acting AGAINST their original stated purpose. Suggesting, perhaps, that the City (Manager?) needs to communicate with the Soaring Counsel regarding inequitable (HG) treatment that has become the norm at the site.
What's surprising is that San Diego has created a Parks and Recreation committee (which includes the Torrey Hawks) to give input into the use of Torrey Pines. Why have they created/added this new layer to the onion when the TP Soaring Counsel was created for this exact purpose? I think they've simply forgotten about their connection with the Soaring Counsel.
I think the City could very easily be THE resource needed to put pressure on the Soaring Counsel to get the Hawks on it's membership roaster. Clearly, the City has recognized the standing of the Hawks, or they wouldn't have given them a seat on the "new" advisory committee.
I really think that, with time, the City has simply forgotten its link to and with the Torrey Pines Soaring Counsel and the purpose behind its existence. I think if someone (BobK?) made a polished presentation to the City Manager and/or the City Counsel, outlining the history of the counsel and where and how it is presently "off course" then I believe many eyes would be opened.
Heck, maybe go to the local media with the story, particularly if City reps don't seem to have interest.
Certainly the Fogel's are proud of what they have done for the Torrey Pines Gliderport Soaring Community. But if it became clear (in a local public forum) that their goals now seem to be to perpetuate UNFAIRNESS, well, then they might just voluntarily fall back into line - to save face.
And maybe letting the Fogels know that some serious questions about fairness at the gliderport are about to make the headlines could be enough to lead to action - in favor of the Hawks - regarding a seat on the Soaring Counsel. Their family history is linked to the site, after all. Do they really want that history to show that they've ended up on the side of abuse of power at Torrey Pines? I wouldn't think or hope so.
_________________
WW 141 Fusion SP
Master rated, First flight - May 1975
FL, PL, PA, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TURB, X-C |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1842
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:15 am Post subject: |
#152 |
In February of 2007 I had begun to ask the SDHGPA about the Soaring Council. In response to that inquiry, I got this message on February 21st, 2007:
| Quote: |
The soaring council is probably defunct at this point. Still it is good to have someone appointed to it, just in case some one wants to revive it.
Recently, the founder of that ad hoc council, Larry Fogel, died. Mostly that group was there as a way for Larry to try to control what happened at the Gliderport. The city is obvisouly dealing with Dave Jebb without the input of the Soaring Council, since it has not met in two or more years. |
So the Council was "dead" when I found it, and I worked to bring it back to actually be a representative body for the pilots (please see the wiki pages on this site).
It's clear that there have been lots of people trying to grab control of Torrey and the Soaring Council over the years, and it's hard to know what kinds of games have been played. That's why it's so important for USHPA to be sure that ALL sides have fair representation on that Council. That way it can finally live up to its potential of being a group to represent the pilot's interests at Torrey.
Thanks to everyone who's been digging into this. What a cool group of people. I hope to meet you all someday!!
Bob Kuczewski
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders • Join the Torrey Hawks • Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1842
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:28 am Post subject: |
#153 |
| Wingspan34 wrote: |
It seems that the Torrey Pines Soaring Counsel and Torrey Pines Gliderport Historical Society are basically "Fogel Family Clubs".
...
And maybe letting the Fogels know that some serious questions about fairness at the gliderport are about to make the headlines could be enough to lead to action - in favor of the Hawks - regarding a seat on the Soaring Counsel. Their family history is linked to the site, after all. Do they really want that history to show that they've ended up on the side of abuse of power at Torrey Pines? I wouldn't think or hope so. |
EXCELLENT POST!!!!
There are many trees to "bark up" in this project, and sometimes I get stuck in a "barking match" with other dogs along the way. I've been working to get USHPA's support because they really ought to be supporting a local chapter to get fairness on the Council. But by doing so much barking up the USHPA tree, I've been letting Gary Fogel off the hook. Thanks for reminding me of that.
As for the City Manager, we don't even have one any more. The San Diego City Government was revised to create what was called a "Strong Mayor" form of government (I actually supported it at the time). But it seems likely to me that our current Mayor (former Chief of Police for San Diego) might have had some personal or professional ties with David Jebb (former police officer). I've been stonewalled by the City many times for inexplicable reasons, and many people (including myself) have witnessed Jebb calling the City police department on pilots at Torrey.
So this is really a BIG BIG mess, and it's hard to know what we may uncover...
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders • Join the Torrey Hawks • Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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Wingspan34
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Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 5652
Location: Central NY
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| Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:02 pm Post subject: |
#154 |
Holly Molly! The current Mayor is a former Cop!!! 
There you go. "Strong Mayor" my a**. I think anyone who's ever been a cop should be barred from elected office. Too high a possibility for corruption.
And this is evidence enough for me as to why Jebb (former drug cop ) is sitting pretty at Torrey Pines Gliderport.
 There's the makings of a great crime and corruption novel somewhere in all this mess. Whether it's close to the real life story or not, I couldn't say.  
_________________
WW 141 Fusion SP
Master rated, First flight - May 1975
FL, PL, PA, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TURB, X-C |
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FPeel
3 thumbs up
Joined: 28 Aug 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: San Jose, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:08 pm Post subject: |
#155 |
| bobk wrote: |
| That's why it's so important for USHPA to be sure that ALL sides have fair representation on that Council. |
My two centavos again: WRONG, WRONG WRONG!!! You don't learn, do you?
This is a LOCAL issue and the org needs to keep it's collective claws off. They've screwed up damned near every local issue I've been involved with by over complicating things and burdening the participants with unnecessary rules and requirements. At Torrey there are signs of collusion, favoritism and abuses of power. Indications are that representatives in the upper echelons of the org at very least knew what was happening, but they did nothing to stop the abuse. Why in the world would you want them involved? Do you like swimming with sharks?
NO ORG. They aren't going to help you and will most likely continue to screw things up. ALL of my experiences with trying to work with them have sucked and there have been a number. ALL I said. Not some. ALL.
Damn I wish you were nearby 'cause I'd smack you with a bat. 
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Wingspan34
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Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 5652
Location: Central NY
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| Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:16 pm Post subject: |
#156 |
| FPeel wrote: |
| . . . Damn I wish you were nearby 'cause I'd smack you with a bat. |
Sorry. That just "struck" me as funny. 
_________________
WW 141 Fusion SP
Master rated, First flight - May 1975
FL, PL, PA, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TURB, X-C |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1842
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:21 pm Post subject: |
#157 |
| FPeel wrote: |
| bobk wrote: |
| That's why it's so important for USHPA to be sure that ALL sides have fair representation on that Council. |
My two centavos again: WRONG, WRONG WRONG!!! You don't learn, do you?
This is a LOCAL issue and the org needs to keep it's collective claws off. They've screwed up damned near every local issue I've been involved with by over complicating things and burdening the participants with unnecessary rules and requirements. At Torrey there are signs of collusion, favoritism and abuses of power. Indications are that representatives in the upper echelons of the org at very least knew what was happening, but they did nothing to stop the abuse. Why in the world would you want them involved? Do you like swimming with sharks?
NO ORG. They aren't going to help you and will most likely continue to screw things up. ALL of my experiences with trying to work with them have sucked and there have been a number. ALL I said. Not some. ALL.
Damn I wish you were nearby 'cause I'd smack you with a bat. |
Maybe you didn't know that USHPA already has a seat on the Soaring Council. They're already one of the 7 member clubs that has a voice and a vote on the Council. All of the "national" organizations are on the Council (SSA for sailplanes and AMA for RCs).
So it's not so much that I WANT them involved (although I do), it's more that they ARE involved already with a voice and a vote. I'm just trying to get them use that voice and cast that vote for adding one of their own chapters. You'd think that should be a lot easier than it has been!!
P.S. The "batting" line forms behind "DoucheBob". At $2 per swipe I'll be rich!
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders • Join the Torrey Hawks • Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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| Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:34 pm Post subject: |
#158 |
When you cut all the fluffy words and arguing aside.... in the end...
Its absolutely stunning to me, that our national "sporty flying" organization, wont lift a finger to help a local hang gliding club get better presentation at PG dominated public park like Torrey Pines, while it sits on the local soaring council.
Just shows ushpa's true colors. Thanks Brad Hall... NOT.
What we need is a national **HANG GLIDING** organization. One that actually cares about HANG GLIDING, not just the # of sport flyers.
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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FPeel
3 thumbs up
Joined: 28 Aug 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: San Jose, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:35 pm Post subject: |
#159 |
| bobk wrote: |
Maybe you didn't know that USHPA already has a seat on the Soaring Council. They're already one of the 7 member clubs that has a voice and a vote on the Council. All of the "national" organizations are on the Council (SSA for sailplanes and AMA for RCs).
So it's not so much that I WANT them involved (although I do), it's more that they ARE involved already with a voice and a vote. I'm just trying to get them use that voice and cast that vote for adding one of their own chapters. You'd think that should be a lot easier than it has been!! |
I know all that, agree that it SHOULD have been easier, know why it wasn't and the latter is the main point of my frustration. You only saw what I posted. Not everything else I wrote and edited out. I've been down this path.
| Quote: |
| P.S. The "batting" line forms behind "DoucheBob". At $2 per swipe I'll be rich! |
Here's a twenty. Everybody step back. That is, everyone except you, Bob. Now hold still. This is going to hurt you a lot more than it will me. That I promise.
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bobk
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Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1842
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:49 pm Post subject: |
#160 |
| FPeel wrote: |
| Quote: |
| P.S. The "batting" line forms behind "DoucheBob". At $2 per swipe I'll be rich! |
Here's a twenty. Everybody step back. That is, everyone except you, Bob. Now hold still. This is going to hurt you a lot more than it will me. That I promise. |
Maybe I shouldn't joke like that. Tom Galvin has said he wants to join us this weekend for our Second Sundays at Torrey. I don't want to give him any ideas.
The batting cage is closed!! 
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Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders • Join the Torrey Hawks • Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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