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whitemaw
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 Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:17 am Post subject: |
 #121 |
| Quote: |
| I really appreciate BobK's passion on this issue and I think we all can agree that we want whats best for hanggliding at Torrey and all the other flying sites. But at this point it seems like he has become toxic, too many people stop listening when he starts talking. I think its time for people who agree with Bob to step up and start being noisy as well. If they were getting gazillions of emails from all of us instead of just from Bob, I think they might have a different perspective. The current methods of attacking this problem don't seem to have been very effective other than raising awareness of the existence of the problem ... Whats next ? |
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BubbleBoy
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:41 am Post subject: Re: Sheesh |
#122 |
| Quote: |
Quote of Ryan by BubbleBoy:
"""The "muzzle" letter you refer to was in regard to Bob presenting his own opinion and then stating that he represented all of USHPA.""" |
| QuienesSuPa wrote: |
| it's Ryan's interpretation. |
BJ - everyone is entitled to their own intepretations, but not their own FACTS! Ryan clearly states that an action occured that DID NOT!
| Quote: |
| He's not "making s*** up"? |
When you claim something happened that you know damn well did not, that's called "making s*** up", not "interpreting".
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| If he's wrong, so what, tell him. |
That's exactly what I'm doing and you don't like it.
| Quote: |
| But he's getting attacked IMHO. |
A man innocent of the charges is being *defended* BJ. It was BOB who was attacked here by an outright falsehood.
JB
Last edited by BubbleBoy on Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:42 am; edited 2 times in total |
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sg
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Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:30 am Post subject: |
#123 |
JB said it perfectly. Its Bob that is being attacked here by Ryan with his falsehoods.
Ryan has a track record of doing this. Its SEEMs like its his agenda to derail all threads Bob creates here by throwing out bullshit falsehoods about him.
He's been called out. As JB pointed out, there is a big difference between facts and exaggeration. Ryan has the facts wrong, and posting falsehoods about what someone did not do is in fact an attack. Especially in this context.
Should I allow people to write stuff about Ryan that is obviously not true?
Such as....
"Ryan cheats all his HG customers" (then call it an exaggeration because he charges high prices IMO?)
Or I just love this tactic.... Ryan really likes using this logical fallacy.
"Ryan never admitted that he didnt cheat on his taxes. Prove that he hasnt!" 
Its a simple BS political smear campaign on Ryans part. Its seems very intentional since he consistently does it. If its not, then he has some major other issues.
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sg
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:39 am Post subject: |
#124 |
FPeel,
Think on this. Dave Jebb put his own son on the Soaring Council. The Soaring Council is stacked with Jebb supporters. Jebb and his crew has fought very hard to ensure they control a lot of positions on the soaring council. They fight Bob tooth and nail while on the soaring council. If the soaring council was truly powerless in this arena, why would they put this much effort into it? Answer: Because its not truly powerless. They have a voice with the city. They also have the potential of becoming the third party entity which could be a check/balance against the concessionaire at Torrey.
People scream bloody murder if Bob talks to anyone at his city. F.U.D. factor.
So Bob tries to use all proper channels. Talking to the soaring council and ushpa.
Since the soaring council is stacked, and ushpa is ushpa as usual, should Bob just avoid them all and just talk directly to the city of san diego about the blatant discrimination by the concessionaire? Maybe even contact a news crew? P0 solo's versus H4's is not defensible in a news story 
And if we lose Torrey over this, will Bob be blamed or the concessionaire for never allowing equal access? I would find it hard to believe that a civil rights activist would get blamed after they successfully shut down one of the last remaining "whites only" clubs. But im sure some people would try.
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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BubbleBoy
1 thumbs up
Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 3002
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:28 am Post subject: Re: Spoke to my RD |
#125 |
| QuienesSuPa wrote: |
| As for my conversation with my Regional Director. |
BJ, thanks for the report on your conversation. The positions related are pretty much what one would expect of you've been around the USHxA as long as I have.
People want things to stay the same and when someone comes along to rock the boat they withdraw and circle the wagons. Understandable and expected.
JB
Last edited by BubbleBoy on Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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BubbleBoy
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:32 am Post subject: |
#126 |
| Sky_Walker wrote: |
| I really appreciate BobK's passion on this issue and I think we all can agree that we want whats best for hanggliding at Torrey and all the other flying sites. But at this point it seems like he has become toxic, too many people stop listening when he starts talking. I think its time for people who agree with Bob to step up and start being noisy as well. If they were getting gazillions of emails from all of us instead of just from Bob, I think they might have a different perspective. The current methods of attacking this problem don't seem to have been very effective other than raising awareness of the existence of the problem ... Whats next ? |
Sky_Walker -- you've hit the nail on the head. I've said repeatedly (as has FPeel and others) that nothing will change in this system unless and until WE THE PEOPLE make it change through the threat of different representation . But, apathy reigns and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.
Don't think I haven't told Bob that his quests will end in disappointment and also don't think I don't respect him for trying anyway.
JB
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HGXC
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Joined: 22 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:55 am Post subject: |
#127 |
When I began my career it was working for anti poverty non profits, (yes believe it Mr Conservative himself as some hippie socialist  )
But what I discovered in dealing with those in the management was that these people were as into power, power games, status and greed as you would find in any major corporation. They were just looking for a easy non competitive avenue to conquer. I found a good deal of the users of these services as manipulative lazy and self centered but that is another story.
I learned that of you want to understand why someone is behaving in some way you must discover the WIIFM (whats in it for me) of that person. Beware and I really mean ...beware of anyone who claims he is doing something as a volunteer and for altruistic purposes. That is a lie there is no such thing as altruism among mortal men and women. We do things for a pay off. The payoff may not be in terms of dollars but I am more comfortable if it is in dollars as I can measure and understand that.
I know this may sound as a very defeatist view of mankind but it isn't and i am not a pessimist. Its OK to do things for a reason and we should be aware of the reasons why we do things.
So i ask what is Lisa WIIFM?, Mark G's? That freakin lawyer? and any other ush*a rep? They may be good reasons or bad but try to know them and you will have a better understanding on where you will end up dealing with them.
Dennis
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FPeel
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Location: San Jose, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:19 am Post subject: |
#128 |
| sg wrote: |
FPeel,
Think on this. Dave Jebb put his own son on the Soaring Council. The Soaring Council is stacked with Jebb supporters. Jebb and his crew has fought very hard to ensure they control a lot of positions on the soaring council. They fight Bob tooth and nail while on the soaring council. If the soaring council was truly powerless in this arena, why would they put this much effort into it? Answer: Because its not truly powerless. They have a voice with the city. They also have the potential of becoming the third party entity which could be a check/balance against the concessionaire at Torrey.
People scream bloody murder if Bob talks to anyone at his city. F.U.D. factor.
So Bob tries to use all proper channels. Talking to the soaring council and ushpa.
Since the soaring council is stacked, and ushpa is ushpa as usual, should Bob just avoid them all and just talk directly to the city of san diego about the blatant discrimination by the concessionaire? Maybe even contact a news crew? P0 solo's versus H4's is not defensible in a news story
And if we lose Torrey over this, will Bob be blamed or the concessionaire for never allowing equal access? I would find it hard to believe that a civil rights activist would get blamed after they successfully shut down one of the last remaining "whites only" clubs. But im sure some people would try. |
Everything you say is correct, with the exception of "If the soaring council was truly powerless in this arena, why would they put this much effort into it? Answer: Because its not truly powerless." Really? Sure, the indicators are there. But Bob says their power exists solely in a one line entry in the lease. You and I agree there is more going on. If he knows it Bob hasn't said and I wouldn't fault him for holding some cards close to his vest. If he doesn't it's time to do a little digging.
There ARE groups on the TPSC who have influence, but based on what Bob has shared it does not emanate from the TPSC. The concessionaire has a lease and certainly has official contacts within the city for its management. They also have the purported connections via a former employment with the SD Police Department. The RCers have their influence through a former judge who was once the Council's Chair (still waiting for confirmation from Bob on this one). Several of the TPSC members are on the Advisory committee. This puts them in contact with the City Council and the Parks Recreation Department.
Bob has none of these.
All he has is a title from a powerless, uninfluential national org that has abandoned him.
What I am asserting is Bob is barking up the wrong tree. He's leaning hard on the TPSC and, as we've agreed, he has no friends there. My suggestion is to go a different route. As a resident he has a right to contact his duly elected representatives, but only as a citizen. He can also access the City's records and find out the true status of the Council. A quick look online uncovered a number of City Council members associated with the site that may also be of some service. A number of approaches come to mind as alternatives to the currently failing approach.
My STRONG belief is any suggestion that flying at Torrey is in jeopardy is pretty far fetched. The city lives and breathes two things: military and tourism. Torrey Pines is world famous for the view, golf and, yes, flying. The site draws thousands of sight seeing tourists every year. The aviation history there is pretty rich, has brought the site to be included in a number of national registries and the history includes Charles Lindbergh and a number of early soaring flight record holders. Only a Chicken Little would see the sky falling. So, as you also said, and we agree, it's FUD.
BTW, IF the site were lost it'd mean just that many fewer bags. Possibly a silver lining? 
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Last edited by FPeel on Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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FPeel
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:23 am Post subject: |
#129 |
| HGXC wrote: |
| I learned that of you want to understand why someone is behaving in some way you must discover the WIIFM (whats in it for me) of that person. |
Excellent council, Dennis. You are without a doubt absolutely correct.
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fly,surf,&ski
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:14 am Post subject: |
#130 |
| BubbleBoy wrote: |
Sky_Walker -- you've hit the nail on the head. I've said repeatedly (as has FPeel and others) that nothing will change in this system unless and until WE THE PEOPLE make it change through the threat of different representation. But, apathy reigns and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.
Don't think I haven't told Bob that his quests will end in disappointment and also don't think I don't respect him for trying anyway.
JB |
JB the only problem is that a decade of the "Jebb Regime" has led to the HG community at Torrey(and San Diego county) being a very small minority. If I had to guess I would say 10 to 1 PG pilots)
David Jebb, Tad Hearst, Brad Hall. et al have (by allowing P0's to fly and keeping the H4 requirement) essentially eliminated the " WE THE PEOPLE" of hang gliding in the San Diego area.
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fly,surf,&ski
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:30 am Post subject: |
#131 |
BTW I would like to hear Ryan and his flunkies (you know who you are) try to defend the P0/H4 rating requirement at the Torrey Pines Gliderport 
That would be interesting.....
EDIT: the next time anyone is out at Torrey check out thier signage that spells hang gliding "hangliding" 
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Last edited by fly,surf,&ski on Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:39 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Sky_Walker
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:36 am Post subject: |
#132 |
Apparently you need to be an H4 to dodge all the P0s
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fly,surf,&ski
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:41 am Post subject: |
#133 |
| Sky_Walker wrote: |
Apparently you need to be an H4 to dodge all the P0s
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The point of the mountain on a light day in the summer is even crazier...
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AIRTHUG
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: What the frick |
#134 |
| QuienesSuPa wrote: |
| It's pretty fricking obvious what Ryan was getting at and now the convo is hijacked with smut. |
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blindrodie
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:36 pm Post subject: Sad but true... |
#135 |
| Quote: |
| Don't think I haven't told Bob that his quests will end in disappointment and also don't think I don't respect him for trying anyway. |
I heard the SAME thing in 1998, from a then 18 year veteran RD as he tried to talk me in to being his replacement.
Not a thing has changed as far as I can tell. I can only hope Bob starts the ball rolling in a new and bright direction for Torrey and this great sport of ours... 
I'm think'n FPeel is on to sumthin...
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AIRTHUG
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:25 pm Post subject: |
#136 |
| fly,surf,&ski wrote: |
BTW I would like to hear Ryan and his flunkies (you know who you are) try to defend the P0/H4 rating requirement at the Torrey Pines Gliderport
That would be interesting..... |
Flunkie may fall under the name calling restriction?
And I have not, nor will you ever, hear me defend that rule. I firmly believe it should be H4/P4 equally.
The talk about making it H3/P3 is way off topic. Get to to be P4 to match the long-standing H4 requirement, THEN we can talk about changing the requirements.
the 4 requirement has a lot more precedent to stand on...
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AIRTHUG
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:31 pm Post subject: |
#137 |
| FPeel wrote: |
| What I am asserting is Bob is barking up the wrong tree. He's leaning hard on the TPSC and, as we've agreed, he has no friends there. My suggestion is to go a different route. |
I suggested this several threads ago, and was accused of trying to derail Bob (again)...
I've also suggested he re-evaluate his methods of seeking change, as he tends to be his own worst enemy (notice how so many different people are shutting him out?). Again, derailing.
Appearantly, when he asks for help, what he really means is say you agree. Maybe even restate the same thing again. SG and Bubbleboy offer enough help, there...
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bobk
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:47 pm Post subject: Soaring Council's Authority vs |
#138 |
| FPeel wrote: |
As far as we know the Torrey Pines Soaring Council is not empowered by any governmental body in any fashion ...
In fact, it is the concessionaire's prerogative to ignore the Council if he so chooses. Therefore, the Council officially has no power and no ability to exert pressure on the concessionaire to effect change. Unfortunately, the changes you want to see are currently all under the official control of the concessionaire. |
I agree with you to a certain extent here. It is clear that the concessionaire currently has the final say, but the Soaring Council could begin to assert some authority by simply stepping up and speaking out. After all, they have all the expertise (HG, PG, RC, SP) needed to offer some pretty good advice on many things at the Gliderport. That has been one of my primary goals for digging the Soaring Council out of mothballs back in early 2007.
On June 27th, 2007 I proposed an "Incident Reporting and Resolution Procedure" to help curb abuses at the Gliderport. The basic idea was that anyone could fill out an incident report and give it to a representative of the Soaring Council to be reviewed at the next Council meeting. The procedure was specifically designed to not burden the Council, and so any investigation of any incidents was completely voluntary by one or more members of the Council. The only thing the procedure actually required was a logging of the Incident Reports so they could be available for future reference.
If you read the procedure below, you'll see that the end goal of the process was to generate an "Official Finding of the Soaring Council" to be published. That's it. It recognized that the Council was "toothless" but still had its vocal cords in tact. The idea was that if a panel (or Council) of expert representatives could agree on something then that should carry some weight of its own. That might be enough to influence behavior all by itself. But if not, then it might provide some guidance to others (City, courts, etc) where an unresolved matter might be taken. Again, that in itself would carry some weight and drive people to abiding by the Council's decisions voluntarily (rather than face those same decisions being used as "expert testimony" in some other proceeding). I thought it was a brilliant way to have the Council assert some degree of authority without actually being granted any.
I wrote up the procedure in such a way that it would fit on one side of a form with the incident report itself on the other side. I've attached the actual PDF that I submitted to the Council on July 17th, 2007. Not one Council member would endorse this proposal as it was (or in any modified form). Of course in those days there wasn't a single hang gliding pilot on the 7 member Council. Both the SDHGPA and USHPA picked ONLY PG pilots as their representatives.
Anyway, here's the front and back sides of the form:
| Front side of form wrote: |
Torrey Pines Soaring Council
Incident Reporting and Resolution Procedure
Purpose - This document describes the Torrey Pines Soaring Council's procedure for the reporting and resolution of various conflicts and violations at the Torrey Pines Gliderport. The goal of this procedure is to provide due process for all parties as well as provide a mechanism for documenting problems that might suggest rule changes at the Gliderport.
Definitions:
Incident (definition) - An "Incident" with regard to this procedure is any action (or combination of actions) which is determined - by any party - to be a threat to the public's safety and enjoyment of the Gliderport. These include collisions, near collisions, and violations of any Gliderport rules and regulations.
Incident Report (definition) - An "Incident Report" is a written document (typically a completed Incident Report Form) that describes an incident from one person's perspective. Multiple Incident Reports may be filed for a single incident.
Finding (definition) - A Finding is a written document produced by the Soaring Council which expresses the Soaring Council's beliefs and recommendations with regard to one or more Incident Reports. Each Finding may also include several 100 word commentaries by Council members who wish to express their support or dissent of the Finding. A Finding is not binding on any parties, but may be used by the parties in other proceedings.
Procedures:
Incident Declaration and Reporting - Any person may declare that an incident has occurred and may report that incident in writing to any member of the Soaring Council. All incidents which result in injury, damage to property, or disciplinary action will require the Flight Director to fill out an Incident Report Form and give copies to all parties involved at the time of the incident. The Flight Director will submit a copy of the Incident Report Form to the Soaring Council on or before the next Soaring Council meeting.
Incident Handling - The Torrey Pines Soaring Council will collect and record all Incident Reports. Any Incident Reports which have been submitted to any Council member prior to a Council meeting will be added to the agenda for that meeting. Each incident on the agenda will be discussed by the Council, and volunteers will be sought to form an investigative committee to investigate the incident and draft a Proposed Finding. If no Council Members volunteer, then no further action (other than recording the incident) will be taken by the Council at that time. If one or more Council Members volunteer to form an investigative committee, they will be expected to talk with all parties and write a Proposed Finding for the Council to consider at the next meeting.
Incident Resolution - The Torrey Pines Soaring Council will review each Proposed Finding prepared by an investigative committee and debate potential changes. After a suitable debate period, the Soaring Council will vote on adopting the modified Finding as an Official Finding of the Soaring Council. If the Finding is adopted, it will be recorded as an Official Finding of the Torrey Pines Soaring Council, and all Council members will have one month to submit a 100 word commentary of support or dissent. These will also be recorded as an addendum to the Finding. |
| Back side of form wrote: |
Torrey Pines Soaring Council Incident Report Form
Date and Time of Incident:
Parties to Incident (include contact information):
Description of Incident (attach additional pages as needed):
Personal Damage from Incident (actual or estimated):
Property Damage from Incident (actual or estimated):
Action Taken by Flight Director (at time of Incident):
Action Requested of the Soaring Council:
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Technically, my request for the Council to adopt this procedure is still on the table (as is the Torrey Hawks application to the Soaring Council on September 12th, 2007). Does anyone think they'll adopt it at the next meeting?
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bobk
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:19 pm Post subject: Re: Answering Frank's Questions... |
#139 |
| FPeel wrote: |
| It took me about two minutes to uncover that the TPSC "was established by the Parks Recreation Department, City of San Diego, in 1978 to provide advice and council regarding flight safety and other matters." They were not formed simply to advise the concessionaire based on a single line in a contract nor to advise strictly on matters of flight safety. Apparently the Council predates the concessionaire. |
This is where things get curiouser and curiouser...
I've posted three different versions of the Torrey Pines Soaring Council's bylaws on the wiki (http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/Torrey_Pines_Soaring_Council#Bylaws). It's interesting that the first two (1978 and 1990) appear to carry the Parks and Recreation heading. But the last version (2001) does not. It's also interesting that the first two were signed by someone, but the 2001 version was not (at least not the copy that I have). It's also interesting that the last version (2001) is the first version to contain the additional RC club (you know, because scale model RCs are soooo different from non-scale model RCs). And finally, it's interesting to note that I got these bylaws from Gary Fogel who just happens to be the "keeper of the Council" and the representative of that new "scale model RC" club (TPSSS). Hmmmm...
And if that wasn't interesting enough, I mentioned that the older documents showed that the Council was under Parks and Recreation, but somehow the newer bylaws show the Council as being the "Executive Board" for the "Torrey Pines Gliderport Historical Society Inc."
Hmmm.... I wonder how that all happened? And how did a Council with 6 clubs (2 HG, 2 RC, and 2 Sailplane) end up giving a 2/3 approval to add a new "scale model" RC club? I'd like to hear who voted on that. Or maybe it happened while the Council was "dormant" for so many years? I really can't say, but there are a lot of unanswered questions there.
And speaking of questions, Frank, you mentioned you found a reference to the Parks and Rec establishment of the Soaring Council. Can you post that? Thanks.
Finally, since I've been posting the fruits of my Wiki Worki, I might as well publish my current sketch for proper oversight by some organization (Soaring Council?, Advisory Board?, other?). It's a series of pictures drawing out the relationships between pilots, clubs, councils, boards, the concessionaire, and the City. I've included examples of how the Soaring Council and the Advisory Board could fit into that oversight system and where they would fail for various reasons without some changes. Here's the link:
http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/Torrey_Pines_SC_AB_0
I figured my time was better spent drawing up some helpful diagrams than continually asking Ryan if he found where I've abused my title yet. 
Have you found it yet Ryan? 
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Learn to fly hang gliders • Join the Torrey Hawks • Fly the Big O Loop!!
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FPeel
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:24 pm Post subject: |
#140 |
| flyhigh013 wrote: |
| FPeel wrote: |
| What I am asserting is Bob is barking up the wrong tree. He's leaning hard on the TPSC and, as we've agreed, he has no friends there. My suggestion is to go a different route. |
I suggested this several threads ago, and was accused of trying to derail Bob (again)... |
I believe the difference is somewhat in the delivery and largely in the intent. What I offered was MY take on what has come to pass followed by a suggested alternative approach since the current one seems to be losing steam. I didn't belittle Bob's position, character or motives. Where I was uncertain about facts that was stated and clarification requested.
Bob and I do not agree on everything. We've both said it publicly and discussed it privately. So even though we sometimes disagree there's mutual respect.
You get what you give, right? OK, not always, but it is a good goal.
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