| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Is the current representation on the Torrey Pines Soaring Council fair to hang gliding? |
| Yes. 3 RC clubs, 2 SP clubs, and 2 clubs for HG/PG (combined) is fair. |
|
27% |
[ 12 ] |
| No. 3 RC clubs, 2 SP clubs, and 2 clubs for HG/PG (combined) is not fair. |
|
72% |
[ 31 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 43 |
|
|
Paul H
2 thumbs up
Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 2183
Location: Reno, NV
|
 Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:43 pm Post subject: |
 #61 |
They pay taxes, don't they?
| bobk wrote: |
| Paul H wrote: |
| No matter how poorly the city is handling the concession contract if no legitimate bid is put forward by another party I seriously doubt they will get rid of the current concessionaire. They don't want to lose any money and they probably won't let anyone fly there without one. |
They won't lose any money - it's a no-cost lease.  |
_________________
Paul H
U2 160 USHPA # 51178 KE7VOG
H4, FL, AT, PL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C, CL, AWCL, 360, HA,
USN ret. A & P mechanic |
|
|
|
gluesniffer
3 thumbs up
Joined: 11 Aug 2009
Posts: 546
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:20 pm Post subject: |
#62 |
| I think it is time to delete "deletemebecauseiamfulloshiat". I would like to hear opposing views -not some sarcastic crazy maker mocking a worthwhile issue. Loser alert!
|
|
|
|
bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1842
Location: San Diego
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:51 pm Post subject: |
#63 |
| Paul H wrote: |
| bobk wrote: |
| Paul H wrote: |
| No matter how poorly the city is handling the concession contract if no legitimate bid is put forward by another party I seriously doubt they will get rid of the current concessionaire. They don't want to lose any money and they probably won't let anyone fly there without one. |
They won't lose any money - it's a no-cost lease. |
They pay taxes, don't they? |
Sales taxes at Torrey? I doubt that counts for much in the City's budget - or its decisions.
As far as letting anyone fly there without a concession, they do it every day at Fort Funston. I could be wrong, but I don't think there's any concession there. Also (and quite coincidentally), for the last two years (and maybe longer), the Torrey concession hasn't been open on Christmas day. There's nothing posted saying the site is closed, and the gate is open as usual. There were at least a dozen pilots and lots of spectators there yesterday (see photos below). There was no one in charge, and there was no "Flight Director" on duty.
[sarcasm] It's amazing we weren't all killed!! [/sarcasm]
Ho, Ho, Ho!!
Media BLOCKED
Please REGISTER
and log in to see this content
|
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders • Join the Torrey Hawks • Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs
Last edited by bobk on Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
deletemebecauseidontagree
1 thumbs up
Joined: 20 Dec 2009
Posts: 35
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:52 pm Post subject: |
#64 |
| gluesniffer wrote: |
| I think it is time to delete "deletemebecauseiamfulloshiat". I would like to hear opposing views -not some sarcastic crazy maker mocking a worthwhile issue. Loser alert! |
Hello Gule, Thanks for confirming that I picked the right name.
Mark, you are THE ONLY man of action I have seen so far.
Bob, like I said, you are ALONE at UShPPPPPPa, it doesn't look like anything is going to change anytime soon. As for your nice reference to the 1776 doc, 1. that was a LONG time ago. 2. They had more than one person willing to take action, (see above). Bob, you recommend caution as if I said something bad about you. I have read MANY people talk about doing this or that, but none actually contributing. Why? Bob, besides you and Dave Beardsley flying at Torrey, both H4's, what have you done for HG-3's at Torrey or R3 as a whole? I'm asking politely.... Tough question, so you may just recommend caution again, or suggest I be banned, or you may say there are 200 pilots who have a fly-in at Torrey once a month. I thought this was supposed to be a fair and balanced forum, thanks again SG, Glue seems to think I'm some kind of nut, I'm just sayin'. This seems to be a place to go to pat each other on the back and quibble about select sentences with folks who generally agree with each other. Many say you want to change things, few, do anything about it. Kind of reminds me of the situation in Darfur, Let's all watch a video now: http://www.theonion.com/content/video/how_can_we_raise_awareness_in
|
|
|
|
bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1842
Location: San Diego
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:58 pm Post subject: |
#65 |
| deletemebecauseidontagree wrote: |
| gluesniffer wrote: |
| I think it is time to delete "deletemebecauseiamfulloshiat". I would like to hear opposing views -not some sarcastic crazy maker mocking a worthwhile issue. Loser alert! |
Hello Gule, Thanks for confirming that I picked the right name.
Mark, you are THE ONLY man of action I have seen so far.
Bob, like I said, you are ALONE at UShPPPPPPa, it doesn't look like anything is going to change anytime soon. As for your nice reference to the 1776 doc, 1. that was a LONG time ago. 2. They had more than one person willing to take action, (see above). Bob, you recommend caution as if I said something bad about you. I have read MANY people talk about doing this or that, but none actually contributing. Why? Bob, besides you and Dave Beardsley flying at Torrey, both H4's, what have you done for HG-3's at Torrey or R3 as a whole? I'm asking politely.... Tough question, so you may just recommend caution again, or suggest I be banned, or you may say there are 200 pilots who have a fly-in at Torrey once a month. I thought this was supposed to be a fair and balanced forum, thanks again SG, Glue seems to think I'm some kind of nut, I'm just sayin'. This seems to be a place to go to pat each other on the back and quibble about select sentences with folks who generally agree with each other. Many say you want to change things, few, do anything about it. Kind of reminds me of the situation in Darfur, Let's all watch a video now: http://www.theonion.com/content/video/how_can_we_raise_awareness_in |
Whether I'm alone at USHPA or not is still debatable. There's a lot of peer pressure there, and the EC has been running the show for a long time.
But what's not debatable is that I am there. I may be one, and I may be alone, but I'm not David Jebb, and I'm still there. I'm there because of this forum and I'm there because of the 200 members in the Torrey Hawks.
What have I done? I've proposed a change to include passenger weight on the tandem form (requested by a Region 3 pilot and passed). I've proposed a commendation for Rebar Dan who took the initiative to make "Hook In" plaques for many of our Region 3 sites (I nominated him, and it was passed). I accepted Rob McKenzie's Presidential Citation (at his request) and participated in presenting it to him at their club fly-in earlier this year. I've proposed an Accountability Amendment so all pilots could see how their Directors have voted (failed - no other Directors would support it). I've proposed that Directors should be allowed to attend EC meetings to better keep track of what the EC is doing between meetings (currently stonewalled by EC). I've worked to get greater representation for our sports on the Torrey Pines Soaring Council (currently opposed by Brad Hall). I've attended and spoken at many meetings regarding our sites (including San Gabriel mountains, Lakeview, Salt Lake City). I was the ONLY Regional Director at each of those meetings. I've worked to promote hang gliding through participation in community events (bringing gliders and simulators for visitors to interact with). I've pushed the beach landing and bathtub rock issues at Torrey. If Brad Hall actually accomplishes anything in either of those areas it will be because he finally got off his butt when he feared that I might do it myself (I seem to be able to accomplish a lot with Brad Hall just by threatening to do it myself ). Mostly, I've talked to pilots at our flying sites, and I actually listen to what they tell me.
By the way, you mentioned (besides getting "you and Dave Beardsley flying at Torrey"), as if that was some small feat. That was something that no one else on the entire USHPA Board would do (despite the fact that many claimed to be Dave Beardslee's "friend"). It was also something that no one else in the SDHGPA would do (the local club that claims to represent "all" pilots). You may think that's a small thing, but establishing fair treatment for our pilots was one of my cornerstone issues when I ran for office, and I've been accomplishing it. No one else has been banned at Torrey since I've been in office.
So what have you done?
This will be good.... 
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders • Join the Torrey Hawks • Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
|
|
|
deletemebecauseidontagree
1 thumbs up
Joined: 20 Dec 2009
Posts: 35
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:48 pm Post subject: |
#66 |
Absolutely nothing. But I made my point. We are still under the thumb of UShPPPa, and this is a lot of talk and little action.
You: Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Total posts: 815
[0.52% of total / 0.99 posts per day]
Me:
Joined: 20 Dec 2009
Total posts: 10
[0.01% of total / 1.67 posts per day]
Number of H3's flying at Torrey 0.
Number of Hawks reps on the TPSC: 0
Number of HG's insured by an org other than UShPPPa: 0
Thanks Everyone.
Bye.
 
|
|
|
|
bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1842
Location: San Diego
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 5:00 pm Post subject: |
#67 |
| bobk wrote: |
| So what have you done? |
| deletemebecauseidontagree wrote: |
Absolutely nothing. But I made my point. We are still under the thumb of UShPPPa.
You: Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Total posts: 815
[0.52% of total / 0.99 posts per day]
Me:
Joined: 20 Dec 2009
Total posts: 10
[0.01% of total / 1.67 posts per day]
Number of H3's flying at Torrey 0.
Number of Hawks reps on the TPSC: 0
Number of HG's insured by an org other than UShPPPa: 0
Thanks Everyone.
Bye.
|
I'm sorry but you didn't make your point.
First, you're wrong about the H3's at Torrey. Several of our Hawks members (including myself - long ago) have flown at Torrey as H3 pilots. We've also had some of our members (including some H2's and less) be able to fly Tandem with David Beardslee (without having to pay the concession $100 for each flight!). While we haven't changed their official policy on H3, we've made great progress in improving HG access to that site.
Second, you're wrong about Hawks reps on the TPSC. Ken Baier was nominated by the Torrey Hawks to replace Brad Hall as USHPA's representative to the Soaring Council. Do you think that would have happened without the Hawks? Do you think that would have happened without me as Regional Director? The answer is NO in both cases. Ken is NOT our own Hawks representative, but he's 1000 times more fair to the Hawks than Brad Hall ever was.
Third, you're right that we haven't created our own insurance organization. We are still working patiently within USHPA to fix the problems within that organization. That's what I was elected to do. I was NOT elected to create a new organization to insure our members. So while you're right that I haven't done so, you were wrong in the first place to assume that it was ever my job to try.
Three strikes, and you're out!!
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders • Join the Torrey Hawks • Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
|
|
|
Davedebogusone
1 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Posts: 1476
Location: Beauklahoma ,peoples republic of Kalifornia
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 5:45 pm Post subject: |
#68 |
Isn't it weird that Brad Hall doesn't post here on these matters?
|
|
|
|
BubbleBoy
1 thumbs up
Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 3002
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 6:00 pm Post subject: |
#69 |
That we *know* of.
JB
|
|
|
|
TomGalvin
3 thumbs up
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 3547
Location: ............... Pagosa Springs, Colorado
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 10:27 pm Post subject: |
#70 |
| Davedebogusone wrote: |
Isn't it weird that Brad Hall doesn't post here on these matters?
|
He has in the past
http://www.hanggliding.org/search.php?search_author=brad
Based on his past treatment, I am not surprised at his absence.
_________________
Real freedom lies in wildness, not in civilization.
Charles Lindbergh |
|
|
|
knumbknuts
3 thumbs up
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 5004
Location: Carlsbad, CA
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 10:38 pm Post subject: |
#71 |
Based on his past treatment?
for those not willing to churn through the messages, let's just call it a draw at best.
|
|
|
|
TomGalvin
3 thumbs up
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 3547
Location: ............... Pagosa Springs, Colorado
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 10:44 pm Post subject: |
#72 |
| knumbknuts wrote: |
| for those not willing to churn through the messages, let's just call it a draw at best. |
Or read the source material and make up your own minds. IMHO neither side are angels.
_________________
Real freedom lies in wildness, not in civilization.
Charles Lindbergh |
|
|
|
knumbknuts
3 thumbs up
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 5004
Location: Carlsbad, CA
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 10:49 pm Post subject: |
#73 |
| TomGalvin wrote: |
| knumbknuts wrote: |
| for those not willing to churn through the messages, let's just call it a draw at best. |
Or read the source material and make up your own minds. IMHO neither side are angels. |
Angels? Let's say I have two little guys, one on each shoulder, I'll go with the one that is saying:
"let's fly at Torrey!"
I've heard that a lot from Bob. His advocacy for fairness and flight at Torrey is more valuable than the other "side." The fact that there *IS* another side is its own indictment.
And that's just Bob's positives, not the USHPA negatives and the negatives of other RDs, behavior that has me actively avoiding support of the national org.
That there is even a question, a hint, a fart in a hurricane's scent of anti-HG behavior in our own *&^@!! organization is a concept I can't fully grasp for its daftness and douchebaggery.
|
|
|
|
Erik Boehm
2 thumbs up
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 2430
Location: Geneva
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:58 am Post subject: |
#74 |
Criticizing bob because he is "alone" in the USHPA is just stupid.
You are criticizing him because of the actions of other directors, instead of criticizing the other directors.
Yes, being a member of some political alliance makes you more effective, but thats only a good thing if that alliance is getting the effects you want.
You have to start somewhere, and one dissenting view is better than none
_________________
H4, Litespeed 4 w/ Mylar sail.
Previous: Airwave K2, Wills Wing Eagle 145 |
|
|
|
SeeMarkFly
2 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 1681
Location: Lakeview Oregon
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:11 am Post subject: |
#75 |
| Paul H wrote: |
| They pay taxes, don't they? |
Yes.
But it's a city park, it is not "supposed" to generate commercial tax revenue.
With that argument we should turn all the free air space parks into revenue generating enterprises so to take some of the burden off the taxpayer.
_________________
Mark Webber
225 Falcon (I can land this one)
163 Super Sport (I can't land this one)
KG6HOT
complacency about complacency is probably the enemy. |
|
|
|
Paul H
2 thumbs up
Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 2183
Location: Reno, NV
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:18 am Post subject: |
#76 |
My point is that most city governments will not turn down any source of revenue.
| SeeMarkFly wrote: |
| Paul H wrote: |
| They pay taxes, don't they? |
Yes.
But it's a city park, it is not "supposed" to generate commercial tax revenue.
With that argument we should turn all the free air space parks into revenue generating enterprises so to take some of the burden off the taxpayer. |
_________________
Paul H
U2 160 USHPA # 51178 KE7VOG
H4, FL, AT, PL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C, CL, AWCL, 360, HA,
USN ret. A & P mechanic |
|
|
|
SeeMarkFly
2 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 1681
Location: Lakeview Oregon
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:59 am Post subject: |
#77 |
| Paul H wrote: |
| My point is that most city governments will not turn down any source of revenue. |
Point taken.
Kind of like the Coronado bridge that paid off about six years ago. Did they take down the toll booths or did the install hearing and air conditioning for the toll operators? 
What is a park good for?
If I was Bob, I would argue that the "business" that is currently operating does not cater to the local population.
The tandem "lessons" seem to cater more to the tourist trade than the local picnicker out for some fresh air.
Even the flight school is taking up a huge plot of public land for what percentage of the San Diego population that flies??? Less than one tenth of one percent.
The "city" is not doing it's job.
_________________
Mark Webber
225 Falcon (I can land this one)
163 Super Sport (I can't land this one)
KG6HOT
complacency about complacency is probably the enemy. |
|
|
|
SeeMarkFly
2 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 1681
Location: Lakeview Oregon
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:07 am Post subject: |
#78 |
| SeeMarkFly wrote: |
| The "city" is not doing it's job. |
An H-3 rating at Torrey Pines would allow more of the citizens that live in San Diego to enjoy this fine park.
_________________
Mark Webber
225 Falcon (I can land this one)
163 Super Sport (I can't land this one)
KG6HOT
complacency about complacency is probably the enemy. |
|
|
|
Paul H
2 thumbs up
Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 2183
Location: Reno, NV
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:33 am Post subject: |
#79 |
Bridges require constant maintenance which costs money. Tolls never go away.
| SeeMarkFly wrote: |
| Paul H wrote: |
| My point is that most city governments will not turn down any source of revenue. |
Point taken.
Kind of like the Coronado bridge that paid off about six years ago. Did they take down the toll booths or did the install hearing and air conditioning for the toll operators?
What is a park good for?
If I was Bob, I would argue that the "business" that is currently operating does not cater to the local population.
The tandem "lessons" seem to cater more to the tourist trade than the local picnicker out for some fresh air.
Even the flight school is taking up a huge plot of public land for what percentage of the San Diego population that flies??? Less than one tenth of one percent.
The "city" is not doing it's job. |
_________________
Paul H
U2 160 USHPA # 51178 KE7VOG
H4, FL, AT, PL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C, CL, AWCL, 360, HA,
USN ret. A & P mechanic |
|
|
|
SeeMarkFly
2 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 1681
Location: Lakeview Oregon
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:58 am Post subject: |
#80 |
| Paul H wrote: |
| Tolls never go away. |
The cost of maintaining the bridge was figured into the city budget before the bridge was built. The toll collected at the booths was to pay back the bond (loan) that was used to build the bridge.
A bit  but an insight into how cities "think".
_________________
Mark Webber
225 Falcon (I can land this one)
163 Super Sport (I can't land this one)
KG6HOT
complacency about complacency is probably the enemy. |
|
|
|
|
Unanswered
Highest rated...
Topics
