[addicted2climbing]

Hello All,

I am coming from the sailplane community and it is very comon to have PDA based software that is used for Cross Country flying as well as just general flight data. Is there similar software for Hang gliders? I use to couple my PDA to my standard handheld GPS and it was set for the plane I fly so there was very minimal setup.

Best regards,

Marc

[CHassan]

What kind of software, and what purpose?

[gerg]

I've played with the trial/free versions of these (on land... not in the air yet). But my biggest problem is my PDA doesn't have a serial in... So I can't hook it directly to my nice GPS w/Barometer.

I do have a bluetooth GPS, but no barometer, so some of big features I'd like to use.. e.g. a fancy mapping vario, won't be all that great because GPS's don't do a good job of measuring relative altitude...

GPSDash - http://wimobi.com/gpsdash/overview.ppc2.php
GPS_LOG - http://www.soaringpilotsoftware.com/GPS_LOGpage.htm
SeeYou mobile - http://www.naviter.si/products/seeyou-mobile.php?Itemid=61

Issues I see with these:
1) No serial interface on my PDA I'm sure some have 'em... but most are USB these days.
2) Not waterproof... I don't mind if my garmin gets rained on in flight, it's made for that... but my PDA? No way... and how do you waterproof it and keep it readable/usable.
3) Sunlight readable display... My PDA is fairly poor in this respect, unless you have the backlight on full bright, but then you're sucking battery.
4) Touch-Screen w/Gloves? It would have to have a dead-simple interface...
5) Too much to worry about in-flight? I know how much trouble my PDA gives me on the ground.. do I really want to futz with something like this in flight?

[addicted2climbing]

The software makes the PDA like sort of a graphical and digital readout of the environment around you, current information on Windspeed, direction, altitude, waypoints for Cross Country, thermal strength, avg thermal strength, Mcready settings as well as a data logger. Some even monitor the rate of climb in the thermal and direct you towards the core. Thats part is a bit like cheating, but it is there if you want it.

Marc

[steve555]

Just combine one of these
www.flytec.com
With your hand held gps.

[addicted2climbing]

Hello Gerg,

I suppose for HG maybe a PDA would be overkill, but the ones I have used while soaring, I only used for aditional info. I rarely switched screens as most of what i wanted was there. As for altitude, GPS based Altitude is pretty good and in some respects more accurate then a barometric based one since pressures do fluctuate. Above ground altitude while tuked in close to a hill maybe not so much. I read somewhere that it would not be uncommon for the difference between what the mechanical instrument reads and GPS data reads to be off by 200ft and tend to read lower then you actualy are.

I suppose for hanggliding, wind speed and direction would be nice, Avg thermal strength, climb rate, ground speed, flight speed. Most of those can be on one similar screen. As for a waterproof box, here is a link to those as well.
http://www.otterbox.com/

Now after all that is said, I very much agree with you in that sometimes adding more electronics and complexity just makes things more frustrating at times. also, in a sailplane there is little chance for damage to the pda while in hangglider it could be damaged easily on landings. Also, what I do see I like about HG is the seat of the pants flying and more gadgets might take away from that. I was more curious if the technology was being addopted by the HG community as well.

Marc

[addicted2climbing]

Hey Steve555,

That website has some interesting instruments. And the 5030 even has McCready settings. I suppose it knows the polars of each glider and calculates speeds to fly based on current conditions. That would be the hard part on any Sailplane based software as the polar of the HG would need to be entered in by hand most likley.

Marc

[steve555]

Yeah
The 5030 seems to be loved by all who use it.
I got the basic 6005.
However I am surprised nobody has come in with the old “I don’t even need vario”
Speech.
(listen for the chest pounding and patting of one’s own back.)

[gerg]

GPS's do a great job giving you some number for altitude, and it's usually within about 200ft or so of correct, but this number will bounce up and down without much filtering, and are somewhat useless as a variometer, because relative to the last reading, you don't have a good idea of what the error on the next reading will be. A barometer on the other hand, yeah, you might be off by a couple hundred feet, and yes, pressure does change slowly over time, but relative changes will be closer to reality, e.g. if you climb 400fpm, you can be pretty sure that the relative output of the barometer will be smoother.

At least this has been my experience using GPS track logs, both in the air, and on the ground... Altitude isn't very consistent, in clear air or near terrain (though more often near terrain..) Sometimes w/1000+ft spikes. But then my GPS w/a barometer is much more consistent... Fluctuates, yes... and it's good to calibrate it, yes, but it's far more useful for comparing the current reading to previous for trending vertical performance/etc.

Anywho... What I'd love is a nice bluetooth GPS to talk to my PDA that has a barometer sensitive enough to be used as a vario built-in... The reason is, although the Flytec vario's are cool... They're the only ones making software for that device.. Whereas with a PDA, you could have more variety to find the software that fits your flying style... I'm a geek at heart, but I also like the idea of being able to tear down flying to its bare essentials... That's part of what attracts me to Hang Gliding in the first place.

[Naranek]

Check out soaringpilot. It is quite complex, but should give you everything you can ever want once you know how to use it.

I'm still pondering about how to attach my PDA to my glider

[addicted2climbing]

I have played with soaringpilot before when I bought a used PDA. I joined the yahoo group the other day and asked if anyone is using it in a HG? I know people use it in a PG so I would assume it would work OK for HG. The hard part will be finding the data needed to recreate the Polar of a particular HG.

As for the mount, that is not so hard. Just find a local machine shop and draw something up. Or better yet make a foam mockup, lay fiberglass or carbon cloth over the foam and then eat the foam out with Acetone and you will be left with a streamlined composite shell to hold your PDA.

Best regards,

Marc

[CHassan]

The top of the line varios can often be used to record your flight. Then with the software available, print out your polar and transfer back to the vario. All set!

[danG]

I use a PDA with some simple software I wrote and a sensor circuitboard, as my vario. Serial in thru the multi-pin connector. GPS bluetooth is coming eventually for a moving map display ;-)

Screen visibility is weak, for sure, but not too bad. I wouldn't want to get it wet, either. Definitely more annoying to get working than a made-for flying instrument. Touch screen with gloves is tricky - i've tried to get flight-adjustments to use the physical buttons.

I looked into some open-source soaring software designed for GPS connectivity. can't remember what it's called, but it was on sourceforge.

I should really just break down and spend the $$ on a commercial one, but that's not the way I roll

[gbx5150]

How much is a 5020 selling for? Flytec doesn't show any prices.

[CHassan]

They have a "Price List" Looks like a 5020 is $899 USD. 5030 is $1359 .

The Brauniger Compeo is$1249, and the Compentino rund $859.

The difference is pretty much nothing, Brauniger has a rounded netto vario, and Flytec has a linear scale. There is very little in difference in operation.