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fakeDecoy
2 thumbs up
Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Posts: 950
Location: Fort Funston, CA
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 Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:33 pm Post subject: |
 #21 |
Those vertical fins hinder your ability to add yaw to your turns. I flew a Super Sport with a fin for a few days and it was not cool. It forced me to do really wide turns. I guess i's better for towing, but is it better for new pilots otherwise?
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H2 / Sport 2 155
There is no spoon.
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Paul H
2 thumbs up
Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 2183
Location: Reno, NV
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:39 pm Post subject: |
#22 |
It depends on the pilot. I never had a problem aero or truck towing with my Supersport, but some pilots have reported difficulties with them. Different pilots will not always have the same results with the same gliders. For some it's good to use a fin for at least a few tows to get the feel for how the glider will react to towing.
| fakeDecoy wrote: |
| Those vertical fins hinder your ability to add yaw to your turns. I flew a Super Sport with a fin for a few days and it was not cool. It forced me to do really wide turns. I guess i's better for towing, but is it better for new pilots otherwise? |
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Paul H
U2 160 USHPA # 51178 KE7VOG
H4, FL, AT, PL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C, CL, AWCL, 360, HA,
USN ret. A & P mechanic |
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bisleybob
3 thumbs up
Joined: 29 Mar 2009
Posts: 780
Location: east coast, England, UK
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:50 pm Post subject: |
#23 |
i bought second hand from someone in my club no sense in paying loads for a training wing. (aeros target)
i gota say falcon 2 you cant go wrong, every experience will be good. and even when the air is scary the falcon will make you feel safe.
only thing close on your list is an eagle. with a fin on its quite nice |
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TN_Steve
3 thumbs up
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 210
Location: Clarksville, TN
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:18 pm Post subject: |
#24 |
Thanks to all who have posted.
I am going to work with my instructors to make sure that I get something that is right for me, safe, not over my head, and will let me maximize my flight chances. I would much rather have something a bit 'docile' than a bird that's a bit too hot with the requirement that I limit my flight conditions until I 'grow into it'.
Seems that the Falcon(s) are the most popular recommendation. That carries a lot of weight with me, since it's coming from some people who's opinions I have come to trust.
I am willing to pay a bit extra for one that has had the inspections, the rehabbing to spec, the included time and training to transition to it included in the price, rather than buying blind. I don't want to spend money just for the sake of spending money, but by the same token, as somebody posted, "what's my azz worth?" Well, for me it's worth spending the extra to have a safe appropriate glider for my skills, talents and flying schedule.
Thanks again for all the inputs, keep 'em coming. The more you talk, the more I think.
Steve |
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fakeDecoy
2 thumbs up
Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Posts: 950
Location: Fort Funston, CA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:25 pm Post subject: |
#25 |
| TN_Steve wrote: |
Seems that the Falcon(s) are the most popular recommendation. That carries a lot of weight with me, since it's coming from some people who's opinions I have come to trust. |
That might be going too far. Never trust internet pilots!
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H2 / Sport 2 155
There is no spoon.
Never trust internet pilots! |
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Rcpilot
3 thumbs up
Joined: 12 Aug 2009
Posts: 878
Location: Turd Rock.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:30 pm Post subject: f3 |
#26 |
I hope you get a chance to fly a falcon 3 . It is just a wonderfull glider.
Ask around , maby some one has one you can try.
I can tell you this. When its time for me to " move up" to a new glider ,im keeping my falcon.
The glow in the dark Falcon 3 will never be for sale.
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http://thecloudbasefoundation.org/home.html |
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TN_Steve
3 thumbs up
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 210
Location: Clarksville, TN
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:52 am Post subject: |
#27 |
| fakeDecoy wrote: |
| TN_Steve wrote: |
Seems that the Falcon(s) are the most popular recommendation. That carries a lot of weight with me, since it's coming from some people who's opinions I have come to trust. |
That might be going too far. Never trust internet pilots! |
Ok, I won't trust fakeDecoy when he tells me not to trust internet pilots... but that means that I MUST trust internet pilots... but I can't trust them.when they tell me to not trust them, so they must be trustworthy and untrustworthy at the same time..... next I'll go back in time and keep my mother from meeting my father, so I'm never born.....
Grins,
Steve |
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FormerFF
3 thumbs up
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 2482
Location: Roswell, Georgia, USA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:08 am Post subject: |
#28 |
| Bobfly wrote: |
| I'm going to go out on a limb here and admit that I just purchased a glider from a forum member before getting my training. Feel free to bust my chops if you want. I am NOT going to fly it before I do my training but I do intend to switch out with LMFP's trainer birds after going to the big hill so that I can get acquainted with the flight characteristics of this double surface glider (Horizon 180) under the direct supervision and guidance of an instructor. It's a very low flight time wing that was purchased thru Lookout Mountain and will be inspected by them before any flights are made on it. The price was right and with my ultralight experience, I was confident I could make a determination on it's condition (tubing and fabric). Because of my direct experience with ultralights I knew I wanted a double surface wing. I did alot of research on different makes and models and got opinions from pilots with hands on flight time in this type glider. I know the Falcons are easier to fly, have a lower stall speed and aren't as prone to PIO or pilot induced oscillation as the double surface wings but I think my previous flight experience will help in that area. I also liked the fact that this bird has a VG system on it which will help to advance my skill level down the road. It is (basically) a Pulse with curved wing tips and a VG and the pulse had a sterling reputation as a beginner wing. Ok, let the beatings begin......... |
I don't think anyone is going to get on your case about getting a Horizon for a first glider. I know a number of people who have done so with excellent results, and a couple that have had some fairly scary incidents. What does concern me about your situation is that you've made the choice already, when you're not far enough in the process to know what you will want.
Your ultralight experience will help you in some ways, but you're going to find that there is a physical component to controlling a hang glider that I suspect is mostly missing from flying a trike, and completely missing from any aircraft with three axis controls. A double surface should be (I can't say from experience) somewhat stiffer in roll and more sensitive in pitch. These characteristics can lead to two problems for an inexperienced pilot: the PIO issue you mentioned, and also, a greater tendency towards slipping turns. If you turn with the control bar pulled in, you will put the glider in a slip, and on a slippery glider, the rate of descent is quite impressive. A slipping turn near the ground can be quite dangerous.
A Horizon is probably the slipperiest first purchase glider around. If it were me making the decision, I would only consider it a good choice if a couple of conditions were met. First, I'd want a spacious LZ, so that if I got in a PIO situation, I could slow down a bit and land farther down the field. Second, I 'd want to have a good number of available flying days shortly after my first solo, and third, I'd want to be in the situation where coming up to the hill and not flying would not be a problem. If the conditions aren't quite to your liking, you'd want to be able to go home without being too upset about blowing a day off. |
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Bobfly
3 thumbs up
Joined: 13 Nov 2009
Posts: 3699
Location: San Diego, Ca.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:21 pm Post subject: |
#29 |
| Thanks for offering your opinion, FF. I want all the feedback I can get. Lessons will be at Lookout which has a 2500' field I think. Another possible flying site is Blue Sky in Virginia and they have a pretty large field also. Then there is the dune gooning at Jockey's Ridge with Kitty Hawk. I know my previous flight experience won't translate directly to a hang glider and that's one reason I chose LMFP for my training. Apology's to the original poster. I'm not trying to hijack your thread. I hope you will keep us all informed on your progress with lessons, etc. |
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TN_Steve
3 thumbs up
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 210
Location: Clarksville, TN
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:49 pm Post subject: |
#30 |
| Bobfly wrote: |
| Thanks for offering your opinion, FF. I want all the feedback I can get. Lessons will be at Lookout which has a 2500' field I think. Another possible flying site is Blue Sky in Virginia and they have a pretty large field also. Then there is the dune gooning at Jockey's Ridge with Kitty Hawk. I know my previous flight experience won't translate directly to a hang glider and that's one reason I chose LMFP for my training. Apology's to the original poster. I'm not trying to hijack your thread. I hope you will keep us all informed on your progress with lessons, etc. |
Not a problem at all. The only place I've studied is at LMFP (not counting one day at Marina CA 20+ years ago), so I don't have much of a basis of comparison to other centers, but I'll share what I have seen, based on the fact that the last 20 years of my life has been in the training racket in some way / shape or form.
Their instructors are very well qualified, personable, have the ability to explain what needs to happen, why you do things a certain way, instill the technical knowledge required, and still make it fun.
I suspect that they do get burned out with the sheer number of novices that they see at times, but they always act like they are out there for the very first time and it's all still a hoot to them. (Actually I suspect that they do get a lot of pleasure from seeing the lights go on for students as they progress)
They do a good job of keeping things moving along, so that we get the most training in before the morning breezes pick up and run us off the hill.
I'm looking forward to meeting you if / when you come to LM. Just look for the 50 something with a shaved head, a beard, and probably wearing a pirate style bandanna on his head.
In closing I'm most impressed with the training I've gotten, and am looking forward to learning more and more as I make my transition from Wuffo to Birdman.
EDIT: Just measured it on Google Earth, the LZ at LMFP is appx 1900 foot long from pavillion to pavillion +/-
Steve |
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Bobfly
3 thumbs up
Joined: 13 Nov 2009
Posts: 3699
Location: San Diego, Ca.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:07 pm Post subject: |
#31 |
| I'll be sure to look you up when I go. I'm a 50 something too but instead of a shaved head, I keep it about 1/8 in. Been working around marines too long. If it looks like decent weather right after the new year then I'll be there then. Looking forward to the training hill and sore legs. |
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Sky_Walker
3 thumbs up
Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 763
Location: Trenton, Ga
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:33 pm Post subject: |
#32 |
While you can't go wrong with a Falcon, I bought an Eagle 164 as soon as I finished my training and I have been very pleased. It seems to have a nice performance boost over the trainer falcons I've flown and It is very easy to land. I've flown mine with and without the vertical stablilizer and I honestly can't tell much difference(I don't tow).
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Jaime Perry
H3 FL CL AWCL FSL
WW Sport 2 155 |
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TN_Steve
3 thumbs up
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 210
Location: Clarksville, TN
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| Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:15 pm Post subject: |
#33 |
Hey Gang,
Nothing is final yet by any stretch, but I've got a line on what sounds like a good glider for me. A Falcon 170, well maintained, from somebody that I know and trust to stand behind it. There are a few more things I have to learn about it and some details to work out, but so far I have a good feeling about this.
I've decided that the best plan for me is to get the safest glider in the world, learn to perfect my skills in it, and if and when I ever reach the point where I've rung out all the performance I can out of it, and it's holding me back, then I'll move up. Quite frankly, that may be a long time coming.
If things work out, I know what my X-mas gift to myself is going to be... just not sure how the heck I'll get it down my chimney 
Steve
Who is happy, even if he messed up something on the lathe today and ruined an hour's work. |
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lgreins
3 thumbs up
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 97
Location: Nashville, TN
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| Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:12 pm Post subject: |
#34 |
Hey TN Steve,
Remember me from the training hills?
I bought a Falcon 3 170. I've only flown it once, and LOVE it. I actually think that I felt the difference between flights 5 & 6(being the first with her), although each flight is better than the last during the sleds I think.
I have had a few people tell me that it was a mistake to buy it though. Jamie bought a Horizon and I was amazed at how easy it was for him to go from the Falcon to it. We have the same level of experience(minus one crash), but he moved to it fast and it's got room for him to grow into. The people I speak of above have nothing bad to say about the Falcon, but they say that I'm a bit competitive and will have a hard time when he(and his Horizon) are higher than me, going further, and staying up longer....
Just something to think about. I'm convinced that I bought the right wing for me(even though I admit that I AM a bit competitive, I'm way out of my comfort zone), however, if I EVER outgrow it, I'll just have to beg him to fly his 
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H2 FL CL FSL - Falcon 3 170
YouTube = http://www.youtube.com/user/greingrove |
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SkyPilot
3 thumbs up
Joined: 18 Nov 2009
Posts: 767
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
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| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:04 am Post subject: |
#35 |
| TN_Steve wrote: |
Hey Gang,
Nothing is final yet by any stretch, but I've got a line on what sounds like a good glider for me. A Falcon 170, well maintained, from somebody that I know and trust to stand behind it. There are a few more things I have to learn about it and some details to work out, but so far I have a good feeling about this.
I've decided that the best plan for me is to get the safest glider in the world, learn to perfect my skills in it, and if and when I ever reach the point where I've rung out all the performance I can out of it, and it's holding me back, then I'll move up. Quite frankly, that may be a long time coming.
If things work out, I know what my X-mas gift to myself is going to be... just not sure how the heck I'll get it down my chimney
Steve
Who is happy, even if he messed up something on the lathe today and ruined an hour's work. |
Hi Steve,
Just wanted to ay that I've enjoyed reading your postings - especially the ones detailing your experiences at LMFP. I spent 2 weeks at LMFP in October 2009 and it was the most enjoyable experience of my life! Being from Hawaii I had to pack it all in - I did 68 hill runs and 4 tandems on the Eagle package. The instructors are all great - I had Dan, Diana, Peter, Lauren and Rex (on the tandem). Do me a favor and when you see any of them please tell them that Brian from Hawaii said Hello. I didn;t get to jump off the mountain but on the last day I was in my harness and on the top and ready to go. The winds were calm but there was a slight tail wind an the instructors are rightfully conservative on when a newbie can launch. I waited until the very last rays of the sun and then it was too late - Dan said not to feel bad because you've done everything you could have possibly done. The great thing about the whole experience was that while I was waiting for the OK there was no sense whatsoever of trepidation or even excitement - just a pure feeling of peace and serenity - that was a great feeling to take home. Will be back in the spring time to reclear the Big Hill and hopefully I'll be able to do my launch - it's killing me to wait and since there are no good H2 sites here in Honolulu my only best thing is to keep up with the hang gliding communityr via this website. Aside from learning to fly the next best thing was meeting the coolest people around (instructors, fellow students and seasoned pilots always willing to share their knowledge). I just hope that they turn off the tractor beam near the Big Hill where for one day I could not fly straight if my life depended on it - out of 10 runs 9 were right into the mud puddles - the 9th into one mud puddle that had about a couple of inches of water. But spring time it should be warmer - and for this boy from Hawaii where freezing cold mean low 60's and half the island gets sick - that would be a welcome change than my 2nd day when the temperature at 7:45am was 32 degrees which 3 cottton T-shirts and a sweater just doesn't cut it!
Keep up the great postings!
Brian
PS I'm plannng on getting a Falcon
Last edited by SkyPilot on Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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$!><
3 thumbs up
Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 1037
Location: Connecticut
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| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:38 am Post subject: |
#36 |
| Quote: |
Hey TN Steve,
Remember me from the training hills?
I bought a Falcon 3 170. I've only flown it once, and LOVE it. I actually think that I felt the difference between flights 5 & 6(being the first with her), although each flight is better than the last during the sleds I think.
I have had a few people tell me that it was a mistake to buy it though. Jamie bought a Horizon and I was amazed at how easy it was for him to go from the Falcon to it. We have the same level of experience(minus one crash), but he moved to it fast and it's got room for him to grow into. The people I speak of above have nothing bad to say about the Falcon, but they say that I'm a bit competitive and will have a hard time when he(and his Horizon) are higher than me, going further, and staying up longer....
Just something to think about. I'm convinced that I bought the right wing for me(even though I admit that I AM a bit competitive, I'm way out of my comfort zone), however, if I EVER outgrow it, I'll just have to beg him to fly his
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Don't second guess your purchase. I bought a Sport 2 as my first glider and if I can scrape up enough spare change I plan on buying a Falcon 225 or Tandem. Nobody says you can't own more than one glider. A lot of people here own more than one and I am sure most hold on to them and just aquire more as they go along. That is all part of the addiction.  You can never have too many toys!!! 
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$!><
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Live while you are alive.
http://www.vimeo.com/six6 |
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jjcote
3 thumbs up
Joined: 01 Dec 2007
Posts: 3216
Location: Lunenburg, MA, USA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:07 am Post subject: |
#37 |
| lgreins wrote: |
| The people I speak of above have nothing bad to say about the Falcon, but they say that I'm a bit competitive and will have a hard time when he(and his Horizon) are higher than me, going further, and staying up longer.... |
If he's higher and staying up longer, it won't be because of the wing. Going further, or able to penetrate better in stronger winds, maybe. People always worry about regretting the purchase of a Falcon, but few ever actually do.
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H4 + various skills (only foot-launch so far)
WW UltraSport 147, WW Falcon2 170, PacAir Vision Mark IV 17
My HG wiki profile and my flying blog |
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TN_Steve
3 thumbs up
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 210
Location: Clarksville, TN
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| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:55 pm Post subject: |
#38 |
| $!>< wrote: |
Don't second guess your purchase. I bought a Sport 2 as my first glider and if I can scrape up enough spare change I plan on buying a Falcon 225 or Tandem. Nobody says you can't own more than one glider. A lot of people here own more than one and I am sure most hold on to them and just aquire more as they go along. That is all part of the addiction. You can never have too many toys!!! |
Nah, I'm feeling pretty good about it. I've had a series of emails with Dan (One of my instructors) at LMFP about it. He says that I could start with something a little higher performance, but I don't have to and shouldn't feel that I HAVE to, but that a new pilot could never go wrong with a Falcon. He said that it would probably be the most fun for me, and do me well.
My opinion is that if it's going to be the most fun, will be something that I can use to grow my skills with in relative safety, I'm getting a good price and good service, and supporting the center, then it's a good deal for me. Will I hem and haw and wonder sometimes if I should have gotten another one? I sure I will, but that is human nature. After all, I can always get another in the future if I decide I want more, and am ready for it.
Thanks for all the advice and suggestions. Everybody has given me stuff to think about, things to factor in, and I think that this is probably the best decision that I can make. (Of course, that doesn't mean much )
Steve |
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fly,surf,&ski
3 thumbs up
Joined: 12 Jun 2009
Posts: 1093
Location: Torrey Pines
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| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:26 pm Post subject: |
#39 |
| SkyPilot wrote: |
[ it's killing me to wait and since there are no good H2 sites here in Honolulu my only best thing is to keep up with the hang gliding communityr via this website.
Brian
PS I'm plannng on getting a Falcon |
Hey Sky pilot it you haven't already, you might want to get together with Phil Godwin. I think his number is on the USHPA website under instructors. Super cool guy, and he might be able to help you out. Keep in mind a certain number(don't remember) of tandem hours can count toward your H3.( I'm guessing you already went tandem at Makapuu though). Based on what I've heard my guess is that Lanikai is the easiest site on the island, but it is a short hike up.(but that's what falcons are for right)
Good luck man I imagine it's a tough place for an H2
Just to stay on topic: Can't go wrong with a falcon Steve, and good luck. Never sell it either because on those marginal days you'll miss it
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SkyPilot
3 thumbs up
Joined: 18 Nov 2009
Posts: 767
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
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| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:50 pm Post subject: |
#40 |
| fly,surf,&ski wrote: |
| SkyPilot wrote: |
[ it's killing me to wait and since there are no good H2 sites here in Honolulu my only best thing is to keep up with the hang gliding communityr via this website.
Brian
PS I'm plannng on getting a Falcon |
Hey Sky pilot it you haven't already, you might want to get together with Phil Godwin. I think his number is on the USHPA website under instructors. Super cool guy, and he might be able to help you out. Keep in mind a certain number(don't remember) of tandem hours can count toward your H3.( I'm guessing you already went tandem at Makapuu though). Based on what I've heard my guess is that Lanikai is the easiest site on the island, but it is a short hike up.(but that's what falcons are for right)
Good luck man I imagine it's a tough place for an H2
Just to stay on topic: Can't go wrong with a falcon Steve, and good luck. Never sell it either because on those marginal days you'll miss it
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Thanks sky, surf & ski (I guess your name says it all )
I plan on joining the local hang gliding club, get involved and learn from the local pilots. But yes, I think I will go take a drive to Lanikai and see what it looks like (for hang gliding) and yes, will look up Phil and schedule a tandem off Makapuu - that'll be a trip since it is soooo beautiful there. |
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