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Spark
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Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 1870
Location: Evergreen, Colorado
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 Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:27 pm Post subject: |
 #21 |
Dennis Pagen wrote a great article on this a few years ago. Can't recall which issue of the mag, I guess I've got old-timers disease 
I'm almost 53, and I've been adjusting my risk tolderance as I've aged, in choice of gliders, and flying conditions.
Seven years ago I flew topless gliders (Moyes CSX, WW Talon 150). Five years ago I switched flying a WW U2 160. A bit more than a year ago, I began flying a Sport2 155.
Although I don't doubt I can fly a high performance wing well, I feel that staying 'safe' requires a constant re-evaluation of and adjustment of my risk tolerance.
Although age is one reason to adjust risk tolerance, there are many more reasons. Some of us are raising a family, trying to put children through college, etc(fill in the blank).
Once my youngest is outta the nest, I'll probably go for a rigid wing (with hopes of fewer tumbles)  Eventually, I'll probably just aerotow and launch and land on wheels.
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'Spark
H4/OBS - WW U2-160 & Falcon 2 195
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Wingspan34
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Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 5652
Location: Central NY
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:35 pm Post subject: |
#22 |
[Edit: Good post Spark. The following response is more for the "we can fight getting old" side of the argument. (I'm in favor of that, it just isn't really my main point) ]
The main reason behind this thread was -
(pardon me quoting myself)
| Quote: |
I don't doubt that a few other pilots have noticed a trend with this year's
fatalities. That being that all of them . . . have been pilots of over 50 years old. |
There have also been a lot MORE fatalities this year than in each of the last few years.
It could be that this is just a function of how many older hang glider pilots there are, and not so much that they are old. But I can't quite believe that since this year, our fatalities have spiked quite dramatically. There are probably a number of reasons for this situation, but I figure it's not a bad idea to think about and discuss the age factor.
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WW 141 Fusion SP
Master rated, First flight - May 1975
FL, PL, PA, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TURB, X-C
Last edited by Wingspan34 on Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bobfly
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Joined: 13 Nov 2009
Posts: 3698
Location: San Diego, Ca.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:47 pm Post subject: |
#23 |
I'll be 53 in march and I have to admit that my body is trying to turn traitor on me. The mind still says "Hey, let's do that! That looks like fun!" Then the body says "Good luck with that. I'll let you know how it goes." I wish I had started hang gliding when I was younger and in better shape. I don't heal 100% any more. Got enough aches and pains to show for my past as it is but at the same time, I refuse to throw in the towel to old age. I can't sit back and watch someone else have all the fun. I do know my limitations now whereas 25 years ago I refused to admit to them. I practice good judgement as a way of life now because as someone put it, " I know I'm mortal now." It can and has happened to me and it hurt! But you young guys better watch your six. Being over 50 doesn't mean it's time for the fishing rod yet.  |
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FlyingTechGuy
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Joined: 03 Nov 2009
Posts: 116
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:08 pm Post subject: |
#24 |
| Quote: |
I don't doubt that a few other pilots have noticed a trend with this year's
fatalities. That being that all of them . . . have been pilots of over 50 years old. |
Could not disagree with this general assersion more. Age does not translate directly into a safety issue. At some much later age of diminishing returns, there are to be sure diminished faculties such that a different approach is mandated. But to make a general statement like this steers folks away from the real cause of this unfortunate accident, which has nothing to do with age at all.
I've viewed other videos of Christopher in which he was having identical problems prior to this incident. This was a technique problem and the real fault was not going back to the training hill and working it until you had it under control again. Then, at the training hill, if you were not satisfied with your performance, you consider hanging it up as unsafe.
What we're talking about here is judgement - not age at all.
I didn't start serious skydiving until after age 50 and have had 100's of uneventful jumps since then. Same with hang gliding, even though I returned after 34 years. Same with Paragliding, which I just earned new ratings. Unless you have some documented deficiency, any of these sports are completely within one's grasp to enjoy and participate by using good judgement, a conservative approach (recommended for anyone at any age) and sound, self-imposed recurrency training.
In other extreme sports I participate, almost all the fatalities are folks in the 20's and 30's with fairly high experience levels. Age does not determine the survivability for anyone.
For those of you who have chimed in who are in your 50's and 60's, you confirm this precisely by your comments. You might make different decisions, or fly a different glider, because that's a matter of your particular conservative approach. But that's about folks knowing and respecting their limits, and each person's are different. And yes, that might change over time, but that's no different than trying to fly while sick, sleep or food deprived and being 25 years old. Not a good idea, bad judgment - not age.
Let's take the focus off age as causal, and focus on training and judgement. Not to do so creates a false sense of security in those still sporting 20 and 30 years old that such could not happen to them, when nothing could be further from the truth. |
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hiflioz
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Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 826
Location: south australia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:44 pm Post subject: |
#25 |
| FlyingTechGuy wrote: |
Age does not translate directly into a safety issue. At some much later age of diminishing returns, there are to be sure diminished faculties such that a different approach is mandated. But to make a general statement like this steers folks away from the real cause of this unfortunate accident, which has nothing to do with age at all.
...
What we're talking about here is judgement - not age at all.
In other extreme sports I participate, almost all the fatalities are folks in the 20's and 30's with fairly high experience levels. Age does not determine the survivability for anyone.
...For those of you who have chimed in who are in your 50's and 60's, you confirm this precisely by your comments. You might make different decisions, or fly a different glider, because that's a matter of your particular conservative approach. But that's about folks knowing and respecting their limits, and each person's are different. And yes, that might change over time, but that's no different than trying to fly while sick, sleep or food deprived and being 25 years old. Not a good idea, bad judgment - not age.
Let's take the focus off age as causal, and focus on training and judgement. Not to do so creates a false sense of security in those still sporting 20 and 30 years old that such could not happen to them, when nothing could be further from the truth. |
Very interesting perspective and I agree, mostly . I'm have no comment on the recent accident ,but more widely I do believe that with all things being equal judgment-wise (as you say, poor judgment is not restricted to any one age!), those diminishing faculties - strength, reaction times, vision, hearing - could still have an effect in a high-risk sport. How significant that effect might be, is open to question. And yes, of course diminishing faculties happens at different ages and to different extents for different people, but there is a trend, no?
I understand there has been a big spike in motorcycle accidents and deaths here in Oz in the last few years as ageing baby-boomer era men bought big powerful motorbikes in retirement, in an effort to revisit the glory days of their 20s. It's unlikely these blokes are all less cautious than they were in their 20s, yet the spike in deaths happened nonetheless. It could be judgment in terms of unrealistic expectations, or an unfortunate combination of too much money (finally, I can afford that big bike!) and not enough time, or a lack of training. IE old bikers are killing themselves, and whatever the cause is a function of their age, but possibly a combination of factors and not necessarily diminished faculties, or diminishing faculties alone. They may simply have the disposable cash at hand to afford big powerful motorbikes, while younger men do not.
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Falcon1 170, Fun 190, Malibu 188, Malibu 166, Shark 144, Litesport3, Adv, GT, SO
Last edited by hiflioz on Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:54 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Wingspan34
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Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 5652
Location: Central NY
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:52 pm Post subject: |
#26 |
FlyingTechGuy,
I believe that the most recent fatality had specific causes. Those causes may have been independent of age - but they may also have been, at least partially, linked to it.
One thing I don't want to do is make a claim that allows younger pilots to assume they are somehow out of danger compared to older pilots.
My point involves noticing that EVERY recent fatality has been an older pilot. I believe that this is statistically odd - but then I'm no statistician. However, in noticing this trend, I figure that not recognizing it MAY lead to another older pilot dieing. Hence the reason for posting this topic.
I am very willing to simply ask the following question:
Why have had more hang glider pilots die during the last year, and why are all (?) of them older pilots?
| Quote: |
| . . . This was a technique problem and the real fault was not going back to the training hill and working it until you had it under control again . . . |
I wonder if age related problems could have led to this pilot not heading back to the training hill? We really can't know one way or the other, unfortunately. But should it be ruled out?
Speaking for myself, I know that a day climbing a training hill with my 75 lb Fusion would seriously impact my knees and back. I may not need help with my launch or landing, but if I did, I might intentionally "neglect" going back for retraining at the T-Hill due to these physical issues.
| Quote: |
| What we're talking about here is judgment - not age at all. |
Could be so, but I've already explained that being new to getting old MAY be a factor in making bad judgments. So I can agree that part of the problem may be judgment related, but also disagree that age (or aging) is not relevant.
I'd also like to keep the focus on this general trend of older pilots suffering fatal accidents. I'm not intending to focus only on this singular latest occurrence.
Still, if I were to focus on Chris's accident I would identify it as essentially a skill related issue. Now, if Chris was aware of having a repeating problem with his launches then judgment does come into play as well.
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WW 141 Fusion SP
Master rated, First flight - May 1975
FL, PL, PA, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TURB, X-C |
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CAL
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Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 3455
Location: OGDEN, UT
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:22 pm Post subject: |
#27 |
i think it could be how we were brought up , we simply took more risk , video games are quite popular with young people . you can get satisfaction flying a jet or racing motorcycles from a video screen . we didn't have them back in our days . so we turned to the real thing . i would love to pull my grandchildren from there video games and take them for a real ride . some of them go for it and i have a lot of respect for those young people that do get out and experience the real thing .
with that said i think there is just plain more older pilots out there then young pilots .
even at that we do have more of a chance of physical problems Heart attacks ,stokes etc. while flying. how ever a young teen ager met his fate while swimming in a pool , he seemed to be in fantastic condition he got out of the pool white as can be stating he felt very light headed , he was later found dead in the dressing room , having suffered a heart attack .
bottm line this a good worth while thread ! we all need to think and be safe !
and fly with in our own limits , be it physical or mental at all ages 
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AIRTHUG
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Location: Point of the Mountain, Draper, UT
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:45 pm Post subject: |
#28 |
All you 50-somethings remember that there are plenty of pilots that are older than you guys, and they're still doing great! This might sound odd coming from someone in their mid-20's, but I don't see 50 as "old"...
Anyone ever ask Dennis Pagen how old he is? I fly with him and he wears me out... I SKI with him and he wears me out (in rear-entry boots, no less).
I like the topic- the idea of taking a step back to re-assess one's abilities and limitations (at any age, really)
Sorry to get slightly off topic... carry on with your walkers and broken hips 
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Wingspan34
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Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 5652
Location: Central NY
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:02 pm Post subject: |
#29 |
| flyhigh013 wrote: |
| . . . Anyone ever ask Dennis Pagen how old he is? I fly with him and he wears me out... I SKI with him and he wears me out (in rear-entry boots, no less) . . . |
He's at least a few years older than I am, and I'm 53 (lots of us 53ers out here  ) . . . Okay, I give up, what drugs does he take?
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Master rated, First flight - May 1975
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AP
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Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 1347
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:37 pm Post subject: |
#30 |
I noticed the top guns in the Redbull Air Races are no spring chickens, except for 40 something Matt Hall. The other competitors must be close or well into their 50s. I think flying is a mental and physical game but I believe the physical component is easily catered for despite age. The mental side is what makes the difference. Bob Hoover and Chuck Yeager are other examples. Rick duncan (near 50yrs old) just beat a world class field at the Canungra Classic, including Jonny Durand. I think we are lucky our sport does not have any real age related decline in performance.
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bobk
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:54 pm Post subject: |
#31 |
Well, I guess I could talk about something other than Torrey.
As an early 50-something myself, I really do think this is a great topic. I've agreed with each post ... even when they seem to be conflicting! But most of all, I think the wisdom of this thread is contained in Frank's Clint Eastwood quote:
| Quote: |
| "A man has got to know his limitations" |
That says it all. The more time we spend flirting around the edges of those limitations, the more likely we are to find them ... the hard way.
Dennis Pagen's limitations and Dave Gibson's limitations are certainly not my limitations - regardless of our age differences. They're just better pilots than I am, and I'd just better realize that! Knowing your limitations works for "kids" from one to ninety two.
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FlyingTechGuy
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Joined: 03 Nov 2009
Posts: 116
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:25 pm Post subject: |
#32 |
| flyhigh013 wrote: |
Anyone ever ask Dennis Pagen how old he is? I fly with him and he wears me out... I SKI with him and he wears me out (in rear-entry boots, no less).
I like the topic- the idea of taking a step back to re-assess one's abilities and limitations (at any age, really) |
Well, that's it, isn't it really?
There is nothing that can take the place of training and judgment of which Dennis specializes in, all would agree.
But the reverse is also true, that age does not determine the safety and proficiency of any pilot. When a person is deemed still capable of flying a complex aircraft like a 747 into age 60, there has to be a reason for this 'cause we're talking FAA here, which is just about the most restrictive entity out there. It's not about age, it's about proficiency, currency, training and judgment.
The real difference is Hang Glding is largely self-regulated, and therefore it falls upon the pilot to see to their own recurrency and training. Not so in conventional aviation, where this is drilled into you at every phase before, during and after licensing.
Between the annuals and checkrides, you can't get away long without being found wanting in your skill set with conventional flight. I should know as I've earned both my Private and Commercial Helicopter certifications in my 50's.
And no disregard whatsoever to Hang Gliders, but compared to flying a Helicopter and all the sh*t that can go wrong, between the control axis that involves both hands and both feet coordinated at all times or you'll die in a whirling metal machine of death - launching, landing and flying Hang Gliders is not as difficult comparatively speaking. And yet there are a LOT of working helicopter pilots over aged 60 who easily can fly circles around guys in their 20's and 30's. No reaction time problems with those individuals.
The point here is that folks are flying more complex, more demanding aircraft putting not just their's but in some cases quite a few passenger's lives at risk as well, with outstanding results even in advancing age.
This is why way it's a bad idea to emphasize age. It sends the wrong message, as if some chronology is at the heart of the problem.
Training, currency and judgment is what allows 60 year pilots to excel every bit as much as it does for a 20 year old.
And examples of guys messing up in their 50's riding motorcycles are not relevant, because this is AVIATION. I know it's cool to think about it like it's surfing, but it's not. It's not supposed to be like riding a motorcycle. It's aviation brothers, and it demands things from us that we need to make sure we're always giving it, no matter what the age, or she'll take you down just like any other airborne fancy. |
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hiflioz
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Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 826
Location: south australia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:21 pm Post subject: |
#33 |
| FlyingTechGuy wrote: |
| flyhigh013 wrote: |
Anyone ever ask Dennis Pagen how old he is? I fly with him and he wears me out... I SKI with him and he wears me out (in rear-entry boots, no less).
I like the topic- the idea of taking a step back to re-assess one's abilities and limitations (at any age, really) |
Well, that's it, isn't it really?
There is nothing that can take the place of training and judgment of which Dennis specializes in, all would agree.
...
This is why way it's a bad idea to emphasize age. It sends the wrong message, as if some chronology is at the heart of the problem.
Training, currency and judgment is what allows 60 year pilots to excel every bit as much as it does for a 20 year old.
And examples of guys messing up in their 50's riding motorcycles are not relevant, because this is AVIATION. I know it's cool to think about it like it's surfing, but it's not. It's not supposed to be like riding a motorcycle. It's aviation brothers, and it demands things from us that we need to make sure we're always giving it, no matter what the age, or she'll take you down just like any other airborne fancy. |
OK, fair enough, what you write makes sense to me, though I'd suggest that motorbikes are to surfing what aviation is to motorbikes. I have to say, at 48, I like to hear what you're saying!
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Cheers from Down Under
Helen
Falcon1 170, Fun 190, Malibu 188, Malibu 166, Shark 144, Litesport3, Adv, GT, SO |
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michaelb51
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Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Posts: 186
Location: Rock Spring GA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:41 am Post subject: |
#34 |
Title: Getting Older and Staying Safe!
The title has it backward. Fix that, and it applies to everyone. The key is not how well you can do the right thing, but how often. And while that's always true, it's even truthier as time goes by. |
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INIT4FUN
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Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 309
Location: Planet Earth
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:36 am Post subject: |
#35 |
The key is not how well you can do the right thing, but how often. And while that's always true, it's even truthier as time goes by.
Stay current.........Airtime, Airtime...............................................................................
Airtime, Airtime , Airtime , Airtime , Airtime , Airtime , Airtime , Airtime , Airtime, Airtime..........in a nutshell......Airtime.
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Windlord
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Posts: 4698
Location: Montana
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:06 am Post subject: |
#36 |
Give me my wing, walker, O2 bottle, depends and Life Alert - - - - - - - - -
Then shove my arse over the edge - - Meet you in the LZ for a nice
refreshing saline drip. Then we'll shuffle up to the edge, and do it again,
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Avnav8r
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 994
Location: Trenton, Georgia
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:54 am Post subject: |
#37 |
Hey,
If you really think about it, we Boomers are probably the first generation to stay this physically active this far in life. To quote Galaxy Quest... "Never give up, Never surrender!" (First, let me take my Aleve, blood pressure medication, and Viagra)...
John Stokes
www.osceolabaldeagle.com
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JR
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Joined: 16 Oct 2007
Posts: 595
Location: western MD
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:59 am Post subject: |
#38 |
| Windlord wrote: |
Give me my wing, walker, O2 bottle, depends and Life Alert - - - - - - - - -
Then shove my arse over the edge - - Meet you in the LZ for a nice
refreshing saline drip. Then we'll shuffle up to the edge, and do it again, |
...and once they start making wheelchair-enabled hang gliders, landings will get easier since you'll be able to roll in on your wheels.
JR |
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FPeel
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Joined: 28 Aug 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: San Jose, CA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:06 am Post subject: |
#39 |
| Avnav8r wrote: |
| (First, let me take... Viagra).. |
Obviously you don't fly prone...
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Avnav8r
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Location: Trenton, Georgia
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:26 am Post subject: |
#40 |
Hey FPeel,
Good point! Maybe someone could come up with a "Podspiece"
John Stokes
www.osceolabaldeagle.com
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To err is human. To blame it on someone else, shows management potential. |
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