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Jason
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Location: Stapleton, Colorado
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 Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:12 am Post subject: |
 #21 |
| sg wrote: |
Its easy to state that the UN's ultra socialistic human rights stance would bring benefit while ignoring the long history of what socialism does to countries and their freedoms. Besides, who says they are right? I dont consider the UN the authority on a philosophical topic as this.
If you took it to its logical conclusion, all the have not countries would bankrupt all the have countries as we attempted to provide food, shelter and medicine to millions billions? in third world countries.
Where heading towards 60% 70%+ tax rates. When the government takes more than half of everything you earned, it starts getting really difficult to call yourself a free man. Sounds more like indebted servant. |
The UN can kiss my ass----there I said it.....
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FPeel
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Location: San Jose, CA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:59 am Post subject: |
#22 |
| Jason wrote: |
| FPeel wrote: |
| The Constitution and its Amendments define our rights as citizens, as well as the Federal government's legislative boundaries. |
not entirely true
9th Amendment
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. |
In sum, the 9th Amendment is a rule for how to read the Constitution. It is a place keeper for as yet undefined rights of the people and in turn adds enforcement to the limits of power placed on the government.
Frank
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Sky_Walker
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:14 am Post subject: |
#23 |
The most important thing to handle with health care reform is to prevent companies from denying you insurance for a pre existing condition and to do away with the benefit caps. The only way that you can do this and still have profitable insurance companies is to mandate health insurance. The reality is that healthy people paying premiums are necessary to cover the really sick.
When someone says that health care is a right, it doesn't mean you get to lay around your house and have someone else pay for it. Poor people will have their coverage subsidized but it won't be provided cost free in my understanding.
The employer based health system is making it impossible for american industries to compete with the rest of the world. No system will ever be perfect but thats no reason to do nothing ...
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Jaime Perry
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Jason
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Joined: 02 Jan 2007
Posts: 7533
Location: Stapleton, Colorado
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:17 am Post subject: |
#24 |
| FPeel wrote: |
| Jason wrote: |
| FPeel wrote: |
| The Constitution and its Amendments define our rights as citizens, as well as the Federal government's legislative boundaries. |
not entirely true
9th Amendment
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. |
In sum, the 9th Amendment is a rule for how to read the Constitution. It is a place keeper for as yet undefined rights of the people and in turn adds enforcement to the limits of power placed on the government.
Frank |
It is impossible to list all the rights of men/women- which is why the 9th is there, at the time of the adoption of the Consitution there were some who opposed a bill of rights simply because of list of rights would be taken to be the ONLY RIGHTS the people have---sadly their prediction has come true
People have a right to die
People have a right to love/marry whoever they choose
People have a right to put whatever they want into their bodies
people have a right to ..........................it goes on
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BubbleBoy
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Joined: 31 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:42 am Post subject: |
#25 |
| Sky_Walker wrote: |
| When someone says that health care is a right, it doesn't mean you get to lay around your house and have someone else pay for it. |
Then they need to stop using the term if they don't mean what it means:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=define%3A+human+right&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g4g-m1
** "any basic right or freedom to which all human beings are entitled"
** "A basic right that all humans should be guaranteed"
** "a right that belongs to all persons"
JB |
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BubbleBoy
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Joined: 31 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:44 am Post subject: |
#26 |
Skywalker ... if not an actual "right", what do you think people mean when they say that food, shelter and health care should be a "basic human right"?
JB |
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Jason
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Joined: 02 Jan 2007
Posts: 7533
Location: Stapleton, Colorado
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:05 am Post subject: |
#27 |
| Sky_Walker wrote: |
The most important thing to handle with health care reform is to prevent companies from denying you insurance for a pre existing condition and to do away with the benefit caps. The only way that you can do this and still have profitable insurance companies is to mandate health insurance. The reality is that healthy people paying premiums are necessary to cover the really sick.
When someone says that health care is a right, it doesn't mean you get to lay around your house and have someone else pay for it. Poor people will have their coverage subsidized but it won't be provided cost free in my understanding.
The employer based health system is making it impossible for american industries to compete with the rest of the world. No system will ever be perfect but thats no reason to do nothing ... |
the most important thing with health care reform is to get the insurance companies out of the drug companies bed and to stop paying for drugs that are 4-500x more expensive then equivilent drugs that are just as effective
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FPeel
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Joined: 28 Aug 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: San Jose, CA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:10 am Post subject: |
#28 |
| Jason wrote: |
| FPeel wrote: |
| Jason wrote: |
| FPeel wrote: |
| The Constitution and its Amendments define our rights as citizens, as well as the Federal government's legislative boundaries. |
not entirely true
9th Amendment
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. |
In sum, the 9th Amendment is a rule for how to read the Constitution. It is a place keeper for as yet undefined rights of the people and in turn adds enforcement to the limits of power placed on the government.
Frank |
It is impossible to list all the rights of men/women- which is why the 9th is there, at the time of the adoption of the Consitution there were some who opposed a bill of rights simply because of list of rights would be taken to be the ONLY RIGHTS the people have---sadly their prediction has come true
People have a right to die
People have a right to love/marry whoever they choose
People have a right to put whatever they want into their bodies
people have a right to ..........................it goes on |
It appears that in general we are in agreement.
Going back to my original point, I see nothing in a strict interpretation of the Constitution that puts health care in the Federal government's jurisdiction. In turn, that means it belongs to the people and/or the states. Therefore, the Fed passing laws for or against health care, such as mandating the purchase of insurance, may be overstepping their Constitutionally enumerated rights.
So my belief is any sweeping Federal legislation passed will ultimately end up in SCOTUS.
Frank
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Jason
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Joined: 02 Jan 2007
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Location: Stapleton, Colorado
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:30 am Post subject: |
#29 |
| FPeel wrote: |
Therefore, the Fed passing laws for or against health care, such as mandating the purchase of insurance, may be overstepping their Constitutionally enumerated rights.
So my belief is any sweeping Federal legislation passed will ultimately end up in SCOTUS.
Frank |
and when has that EVER stopped them?
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FPeel
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:46 am Post subject: |
#30 |
| Jason wrote: |
| and when has that EVER stopped them? |
On more than a few occasions. The latest? They took a big step upholding the Second Amendment. That fish ain't finished frying just yet, but a strong precedence has been set for more good stuff.
You see, I haven't totally lost faith in the system. I am sorely aware if the abuses though.
Frank
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Jason
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Location: Stapleton, Colorado
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:49 am Post subject: |
#31 |
| FPeel wrote: |
| Jason wrote: |
| and when has that EVER stopped them? |
On more than a few occasions. The latest? They took a big step upholding the Second Amendment. That fish ain't finished frying just yet, but a strong precedence has been set for more good stuff.
You see, I haven't totally lost faith in the system. I am sorely aware if the abuses though.
Frank |
while that is true, and Im anxiously awaiting McDonald vs Chicago
lets not forget the 1994 ban on an entire type of weapon- clearly an "infringement"- the SC did............nothing........
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Sky_Walker
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Location: Trenton, Ga
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:21 pm Post subject: |
#32 |
You have a right to bear Arms but that doesn't mean that the government is going to provide one for you with public tax dollars.
I can't speak for everyone but when I say that access to health care should be a human right, I'm basically saying that Insurance companies shouldn't be able to discriminate and refuse covereage for people with pre existing conditions or beyond a certain age limit, etc.
I don't really think anyone has made the case that we are entitled to free health care, thats certainly not the point I'm trying to make ....
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Jaime Perry
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selbaer
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:49 pm Post subject: |
#33 |
| Sky_Walker wrote: |
Poor people will have their coverage subsidized but it won't be provided cost free in my understanding.
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With 11.8% unemployment here in the Tampa Bay area we will have to support a whole lot of "poor" people. I can't wait for Obama to spread the wealth. Too bad I'm not going to be on the receiving side. |
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tysonr
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Joined: 20 Nov 2009
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Location: Tampa, FL
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:13 pm Post subject: |
#34 |
| Genuine rights, such as free speech, religious worship, and self defense, are not commodities to be purchased. They merely require that each of us refrains from initiating force against the rest of us. Because health care requires labor and resources for its production, enforcing one person's 'right' to health care necessarily means forcing another person to work to produce this health care. A 'right' that cannot exist without the confiscation of labor and property is no right at all; it's a wrong. |
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Jason
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:15 pm Post subject: |
#35 |
| tysonr wrote: |
| Genuine rights, such as free speech, religious worship, and self defense, are not commodities to be purchased. They merely require that each of us refrains from initiating force against the rest of us. Because health care requires labor and resources for its production, enforcing one person's 'right' to health care necessarily means forcing another person to work to produce this health care. A 'right' that cannot exist without the confiscation of labor and property is no right at all; it's a wrong. |
first post 3 thumbs UP 
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BubbleBoy
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:28 pm Post subject: |
#36 |
| tysonr wrote: |
| Genuine rights, such as free speech, religious worship, and self defense, are not commodities to be purchased. They merely require that each of us refrains from initiating force against the rest of us. Because health care requires labor and resources for its production, enforcing one person's 'right' to health care necessarily means forcing another person to work to produce this health care. A 'right' that cannot exist without the confiscation of labor and property is no right at all; it's a wrong. |
So well said Tyson.
JB |
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HGXC
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Joined: 22 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:29 pm Post subject: |
#37 |
JR again spins his liberal agenda as he labels others republican. That is always easy when the guy who wants to increase taxes spend less then me. He is basically ordering services with my wallet.
I would respect you more if you pledge dollar for dollar JR.
Now for the facts of the issue. Now I speak as a former health care provider, a former health care executive and a former a current user of some of the most high tech health care services you can imagine. BTW since you are an educator my expience includes two Masters Degrees to qualify for the positions i held. That si probably at least one more then....hmmmm....you! 
I say this because most of the general public (not all), have little direct knowledge of how insurance works, what their employer pays in their policies, why insurance companies are not allowed to compete today, how we can create an environment that will let them bids for business in other states, What the profit target is when a for profit insurance company writes a plan and what the target is for non profits. What utilization rates are and how they effects usage, What rights are lost when a government control system funds the policy etc. and so on. No the ones that will hardly if at all pay for this are the ones screaming for it. Hey that's how life is, We go from charging it to our parents to charging it to big government right?
Do you know for instance JR that the current Senate plan funding at 870,000,000,000 is a ten year cost for only 6 and a half years of delivery? Yep thats a trick they played to get the real cost down to below a trillion because that was the PR number they were hoping to sell the plan on. The real cost for 10 years will be 2.5 trillion.
Also notice the latest leak on mammograms and cervical cancer screenings for women. Yes they were only recommendations buy imagine the government running the show and all the increase in use rates among the less healthy now they don't have to pay or actually work a professional job. Well the budget will be blown sky high and like the undercharged California University system the tax will have to either increase or they will have to cut utilization and they can by just screening every two years or hell lets make it three years and the few that get cancer well those costs for care will be 10 years from now and I need to get reelected today!
I am all for having a centralized health insurance registration process that allows all insurance plan administration to have to adapt the same rules. Taking this away from individual states will allow all registered company to sell insurance in any state they want as long as the write by the agreed upon guidelines. I am all for eliminating demographic cherry picking as a practice and that can just be in a recommended policy. I am also in favor of including cobra in all unemployment so when people loose their jobs they can still get health care. I also will include any child under the age of 26 that is out of work can be covered by a working parent.
I think these changes will cover the majority of the uninsured today without the government taking over an industry that constitutionally they have no right to and definitely have no expertise in. Cost saving will come from the increase competition by removing the existing state barriers. Drugs will be negotiate downward by business men running companies who are motivate to cut the costs and now have volume to offer as a negotiating tool.
Pink Floyd said "Teacher leave the kids alone" and my take is JR leave industries you know little about and can't afford alone as well.
Dennis
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BubbleBoy
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:35 pm Post subject: |
#38 |
| Sky_Walker wrote: |
| You have a right to bear Arms but that doesn't mean that the government is going to provide one for you with public tax dollars. |
Saying that we have the right to bear arms is very, very different than saying that guns are a right.
| Quote: |
| I can't speak for everyone but when I say that access to health care should be a human right, I'm basically saying that Insurance companies shouldn't be able to discriminate and refuse covereage for people with pre existing conditions or beyond a certain age limit, etc. |
If you're willing for the coverage to be priced based on the risk involved, I have no problem with that access (and it's available TODAY).
I don't think that's what you mean however and figure that what you're saying here is the equivalent of the insurance company being required to cover you AFTER the accident. (to use an auto insurance analogy).
| Quote: |
| I don't really think anyone has made the case that we are entitled to free health care, thats certainly not the point I'm trying to make .... |
But it IS the point your are trying to make -- if you require someone to cover a preexisting condition in a manner *other than* pricing according to the actual risk, you are demanding free (underpriced) health care.
JB |
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HGXC
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Joined: 22 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:36 pm Post subject: |
#39 |
| Quote: |
I guess it depends upon one's definition of "basic human right", but in a modern, civilized society, I think food and housing. like health-care, should also be a basic human right. As did Presidents Roosevelt and Roosevelt and as stated in the 1948 UN resolution.
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Hey Comrade are you suggesting the goiernemnt take over the construction industry, the food processing and distibution industry, the fuel industry, the clothing industry ????? I mean why stop at health care you can certainly die quicker naked, starved, cold and unsheltered before you will from a lack of health care.
Dennis
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sg
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Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:36 pm Post subject: |
#40 |
| Sky_Walker wrote: |
| You have a right to bear Arms but that doesn't mean that the government is going to provide one for you with public tax dollars. |
Compare the following to sentences:
a) you have a right to healthcare
b) you have a right to get healthcare (= you have a right to bear arms).
| Quote: |
I can't speak for everyone but when I say that access to health care should be a human right, I'm basically saying that Insurance companies shouldn't be able to discriminate and refuse covereage for people with pre existing conditions or beyond a certain age limit, etc. |
I agree with you. But thats is very different than healthcare being a human right.
We also dont need this huge monopoly gift to insurance companies to make that happen.
They could simply pass one simple, one paragraph law, not 1900+ pages which states insurance companies cannot refuse coverage for pre-existing conditions or age. Then rates will go up to adjust for this new law as they will have to.
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