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TommyT
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Joined: 22 Jul 2009
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Location: Whitewater, Wisconsin
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 Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:25 am Post subject: Is a forum the best home page for promoting HGing? |
 #1 |
While I have no artistic talents or marketing skills I do wonder if a forum is the best way to get people to look deeper into HGing,
I also wonder if using wiki which tends to read like a pagen manual is best.
Would a home page with at least the basic information before they get to Wiki or the forum be better?
Tommy
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Last edited by TommyT on Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Holger
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Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 851
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:24 am Post subject: |
#2 |
| I see websites as marketing tools that try to spread a message. I put very little initial faith into truth and honesty of the content, or even currency. An active forum on the other hand, tells me what the ordinary Joe says, and I can see when he said it. It's raw information from out in the field. I much prefer it, personally. Especially if it's about an activity that is said to be dangerous and there's a lot of misinformation on it.
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jimrooney
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 1713
Location: Queenstown, New Zealand
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:37 am Post subject: |
#3 |
For the most part, I'd agree.
I too distrust anything even resembling marketing.
The downsides of forums however are "the youtube effect", flamewars and information is deeply buried.
"the youtube effect" I refer to is "OMG! LOOK AT THIS CRASH!!!"
This happens not only in videos, but also in writing btw.
Flamewars are obvious
The buried information bit I think is where the wiki approach works best. Have a look at Tommy's example page... same info that should be on a wiki. BTW, wikis generally seem dry mainly because people don't put pics/videos on them.
Hahahah, that's how the internet was when it started too ;)
Jim
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TommyT
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Joined: 22 Jul 2009
Posts: 267
Location: Whitewater, Wisconsin
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:40 am Post subject: |
#4 |
| Quote: |
| I too distrust anything even resembling marketing. |
Jim & Holger
IMO good marketing of HGing is nothing more then showing people what it is(today), who does it(you), and the communities(you and your flying buddies) around it.
As Jim pointed out wiki, while it offers lots of information it can be dry and betting that people will look deeper into HGing from that is a bad bet IMO.
A single picture is worth 1000 words, a video is worth 10,000 words.
Tommy
PS: All of the information below would have more weight if they seen even my simple example before this.
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jimrooney
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Location: Queenstown, New Zealand
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:35 pm Post subject: |
#5 |
Wasn't I just advocating pictures?
BTW, if a picture says 1,000 words, what's a video say?
However, just slugging up pictures I don't think gets it. Anyone coming to a website is looking for information.
I think you've missed what I was talking about when I say wiki... a wiki isn't an FAQ. But whatever you use, you're trying to get people information.
Jim
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TommyT
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Joined: 22 Jul 2009
Posts: 267
Location: Whitewater, Wisconsin
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:04 pm Post subject: |
#6 |
| Quote: |
| However, just slugging up pictures I don't think gets it |
Jim, you are right. because I don't have the ability to string enough words together to make a complete sentence(if I knew what one was), pictures are the only way I can hope to get a message out.
Not sure it's all my fault, there was this girl named penny in my English class, no male could concentrate on anything around her.
Maybe you could put up an example of how it should look.
Tommy
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jimrooney
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 1713
Location: Queenstown, New Zealand
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:04 pm Post subject: |
#7 |
Sorry Tommy, ain't my race.
That's why I point to a wiki all the time.
Community effort's the only thing that's going to do what you're looking for. No one's got a big enough Superman complex to take on that task themselves. Invariably the question of "wait, what am I doing this for?" slips its way in.
Jim
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TommyT
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Joined: 22 Jul 2009
Posts: 267
Location: Whitewater, Wisconsin
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:44 pm Post subject: |
#8 |
| Quote: |
| Invariably the question of "wait, what am I doing this for?" slips its way in. |
Jim
The easy answer is "Promote Hang Gliding" , We could work on USHPA to change it's website to better help in Promoting HGing(been there, done that, not happening).
Sg has stated his goal of helping to promote HGing, and I'm sure I'm not the only one that sees the limitations of a forum(Youtube effect as you coined), and Wiki's with
its bla, bla, bla effect as the only promotion tools. Soon there is going to be a HangGliding.org sticker program going (thanks to Flakey) it would be nice if there was a HGing
page with pictures, videos and most importantly HGing information to compliment that program.
My hope is Sg would see how sweet it would look and buy into the idea, thats not going to happen with my lame examples.
Jim, I can understand that, but I'v seen your work and I know your capable of the task.
| Quote: |
| Community effort's the only thing that's going to do what you're looking for. |
Is there a forum member(s) that would like to help come up with a page Sg would like?
Tommy
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peanuts
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Joined: 08 Jul 2008
Posts: 1880
Location: virginia
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:28 pm Post subject: |
#9 |
| just one little bitty question... what is to MAKE these potential customers come to your website/forum/whatever. maybe burma shave billboards?
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TommyT
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Joined: 22 Jul 2009
Posts: 267
Location: Whitewater, Wisconsin
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:55 pm Post subject: |
#10 |
| Quote: |
| what is to MAKE these potential customers come to your website/forum/whatever. |
peanuts
While Sg has a good web raking which put him high on a web search, and then with the HangGliding.org sticker program web traffic should go up, the goal is to make sure no one leaves the site without getting at least the basic information on Hang Gliding.
Tommy
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jimrooney
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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Location: Queenstown, New Zealand
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:41 pm Post subject: |
#11 |
Hrm... I just logged out to see what the site looks like to someone just showing up. It doesn't seem too far off the mark.
That intro video does an excellent job. I'd be hard pressed to put something better together myself.
Hahaha, even spotted some of my footage in there 
(btw SG, let me know if you ever need more, got plenty, happy to share)
So, I don't know. I think you're onto the right idea of trying to help SG out. Not sure which bits I'd polish which way. I think he's got the number one issue nailed... make the homepage different if you're logged in or not! Something the USHPA completely misses.
Hrm... perhaps run with that... push it a bit more than video/no-video. Dunno. Would have to think on it.
Jim
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TheCzech
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Posts: 16
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:50 pm Post subject: |
#12 |
| You could get some inspiration at OhioFlyers.org :-) The have a combination of both, pictures and forums. Three random pictures that change with every refresh of the page at the top, then the few most recent threads listed below it, and nicely oranized navigation to the side. Site includes a gallery to which all the users contribute with their pictures, flight reports, knowledgebase etc ...
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TommyT
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Joined: 22 Jul 2009
Posts: 267
Location: Whitewater, Wisconsin
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:50 pm Post subject: |
#13 |
| Quote: |
| That intro video does an excellent job. I'd be hard pressed to put something better together myself. |
Jim, I have to agree with you, but could someone in IN or OH or god forbid WI watch that video and think will we got no mountains
around here and look no deeper, where as with my lame example they could watch this video and one with payout, aero towing,
static launching. They could see areas of the country that they live in and maybe see more of a possibility for them.
TheCzech, I guess I'm not a fan of using forums as a promotion tool, take a look at the topics(see below) is this the first impression
we want to make on someone thats just looking into the sport?
Tommy
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jimrooney
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:03 pm Post subject: |
#14 |
My advice in that situation is add.
I don't think I'd mess with the video, and you always get to worry about "NASCAR syndrome", but what I'm saying is that video (and it's a fine video) shouldn't be looked at as the end all be all or "this or nothing".
Fill in the missing bits.
Oh, NASCAR syndrome... trying to put absolutely everything on one page... you wind up looking like a race car with lots of logos slapped all over it. (careful)
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sg
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Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:22 pm Post subject: |
#15 |
| TheCzech wrote: |
| You could get some inspiration at OhioFlyers.org :-) The have a combination of both, pictures and forums. Three random pictures that change with every refresh of the page at the top, then the few most recent threads listed below it, and nicely oranized navigation to the side. Site includes a gallery to which all the users contribute with their pictures, flight reports, knowledgebase etc ... |
Look at the PHOTOS tab.
There is already a section for photos where people can upload, rate, and share.
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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Holger
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Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 851
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:42 pm Post subject: |
#16 |
| TommyT wrote: |
TheCzech, I guess I'm not a fan of using forums as a promotion tool, take a look at the topics(see below) is this the first impression
we want to make on someone thats just looking into the sport? |
Yes, to me that's a perfect first impression.
Let's assume I'm looking into base jumping (need to do something for my endorphin level). Most everybody that I've talked to tells me base jumping is crazy and will kill me in short order. And that the training and equipment is insanely expensive. But I haven't found anybody who actually does this sport, so I hit the Internet to try to find out what's really going on. I know I can't trust anybody that eyes my wallet (training, associations, equipment providers) because they're probably working with extra slim margins in a passion driven market and are desperate to win new customers.
That leaves unaffiliated individuals as source of information, and they need to provide the information for free - or they're themselves in that conflict of interest because they're selling the information. Personal websites (could be paid though), blogs (a little better), but here comes the king of free information online discussions in form of mailing lists, news groups and forums!
Such a discussion can also be suspicious: Is it run by a manufacturer that deletes all bad posts? Is it fake altogether? Are the discussions recent enough to be relevant? Is it dominated by a handful forum gods and everybody else dances around them?
Now assume I find hg.org and it's about base jumping. First I try to find affiliations. Nope. Then I look at the dates - man, this forum throbs from energy! Then I try to find out whether it's moderated and the critical stuff filtered out - not likely, I see accident reports, all kinds of discussion that moderators would cut out. This forum is full of real base jumping stories, good and bad - great! Then I find the wiki, a FAQ, lists of manufactures and equipments, I'm invited to make contact with a local school - all the good stuff to inform myself about the new sport. The people seem a little nutty - but I wouldn't have expected any different (and I should fit right in).
OK, that's how I'd see hg.org as someone trying to learn about the sport. I'm sure a lot of the younger people do it just like that. They're way more into communication then reading literature.
Those that just don't even bother to listen in to our discussions, or are put off by our somewhat wacky stuff, will they be happy in the long run doing HG? I don't know, but I have a feeling they wouldn't be as safe as they were, if they took a little effort to educate themselves, or listen in to learn from others. It's OK if hg.org does a little filtering.
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sg
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Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:24 am Post subject: |
#17 |
I think Holger nails a very important point.
Any site that looks like AN ACTIVE community, makes it very "real" and more attractive.
I think the home page for NON-registered users can be improved upon, but I also think the active forum links bring a lot of value.
The latest pics from the photo section will be added to the home page eventually.
And Im open to other mods as well, I just dont have time at the moment but im taking notes.
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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TommyT
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Joined: 22 Jul 2009
Posts: 267
Location: Whitewater, Wisconsin
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:57 am Post subject: |
#18 |
| Quote: |
| I think Holger nails a very important point. |
Sg & Holger
I also thought Holger's response was very insightful and nailed a promotion geared towards thrill seeking(adventurous) males.
What I see is a few big flight parks in key locations(touristy) doing fairly good, while hundreds of out of the way instructors living
on kraft macaroni & cheese(barely getting by), what make the big flight parks big is not adventurous males, its school teachers
, dentists, factory workers, farmers and yes hundred year old grandmothers. While it true some of these people will never go on
to become one of us they do pay the instructors bills, helping him stay in business which means more of us in the long run.
We had thirty years of promotions of the adventurous(mass media did wonders) side of HGing where did that get us? IMO it's
time to look in a different direction(average joe/Joline) some of you may find this hard to believe but I know hundreds of pilots
that have never done a loop and chances are will never in their flying career, because to them it's about being in the air(staying in the air).
I'm not going to say this too laud but I walked around most of my life thinking I was afraid of heights and it wasn't until I tried HGing
that I found out that wasn't the case, would someone like me look past the in-fighting, Youtube effect(thanks Jim) of a Forum?
When I think of promoting HGing I think of the people in the picture below, each of which are HGer pilots. I think of the HGing instructors
tiring to make a go of it, I think give the people the information without a lot of drama.
Tommy
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sg
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Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:04 am Post subject: |
#19 |
Hmmmmmmmmm..... ive always had the impressions that in the last couple of decades, hang gliding has been promoted by ushpa as the sport even grandma could do. Its sooooooooo safe, anyone can do it, blah blah....
Many pilots here have voiced their opinion that this sugar coated version is part of our a problem and that we need to get back to our EXTREME roots, and market the sport as a risky, extreme sport, that is not for everyone.
I actually think the sport can be both, but if I look around at how other sports are marketing, I certainly dont see SKI MAGAZINE putting a pic of grandma going down a bunny hill on the cover. Booooooooooooring....
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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TommyT
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Joined: 22 Jul 2009
Posts: 267
Location: Whitewater, Wisconsin
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:15 am Post subject: |
#20 |
| Quote: |
| ive always had the impressions that in the last couple of decades, hang gliding has been promoted by ushpa as the sport even grandma could do. Its sooooooooo safe |
Sg
The only promotions USHGA has done is HGing Comps, the groups promoting it as soooooo safe are the big flight parks, that may be one reason they are big.
The only National promotion of HGing is Youtube 
Tommy
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