Remember the Rotec Ralley I was considering a week ago? Probably a good thing you guys talked me out of that one. But now my local buddies want to do things right and get a Dragonfly. Isn't that like shopping for a Maserati, cost wise? Has any of you kept track of the costs involved in maintaining a Dragonfly for towing and fun rides? Anybody got a used one for sale? A trashed fixer-upper? Hey Blindrodie, you sold yours, right?
We bought ours in 2001 from Bill Moyes after the Quest Comp. He came over with a few each time and sells them afterwords. $15,000 with 125 hours on it. 582 BH Rotax.
What do you want for estimate criteria?
Per hour?
Hanger Rent?
Liability and or Hull Insurance?
PP ticket with 100 hours in type and USHPA AT rating
100 hour FAA inspection by certified AP-$300/$400
150 hour top end OH by certified mechanic $600
250 hour top end OH by certified mechanic $600
400-500 hour complete OH $2000+
Launch cart and towline+ $500-$1000
It cost us BEFORE Sport Pilot about $5000-$7000 per year to operate.
Lot's of variables Holger. If you can get 20-25 pilots to pay $500 per year and then $10 tow fees it's doable, but you have to spread out the costs and have a very good Manager to run the show. LOTS of work but it WAS worth it.
What else....... _________________ "Tow me up. I'll find my way down"
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Torrey Hawk #212
It cost us BEFORE Sport Pilot about $5000-$7000 per year to operate.
Thanks much, Jim. Sorry for the vague question. I was looking for real-life numbers of the running costs, much like you provided.
There is a used Dragonfly we might be able to buy, but I don't think we can have it for anywhere close to $15k (it's N-numbered). We're discussing sharing it in a group of 3-4. Recover some of the running costs with tandems and tows. We don't have 20 committed pilots here. Did you have hull coverage?
Alternatively, there are the light part 103 trikes like the NW Maverick with a 447 that seem to be capable of towing, too. Much less expensive, but we're concerned they may be grounded on good thermal days.
No hull coverage, not worth it for most scraps and bruises. Just need a Moyes Dealer in your group!
We incorporated and shared a loan between 4 Partners (5 originally) each Partner liable for his part of the total loan ($21,000) over 5 years.
We charged $20 for tows, $125 for tandems. Instructor keeps $25, Corporation kept $100. Corp. paid for all fuel/rent and maintenance. Manager was unpaid position(me )
Having your own mountain is great but it ain't cheap!!!
So far I have yet to see an FAR 103 trike that was safe enough for towing with anything but the best pilots-Trike included! (Too light and too underpowered)
If the US Gov. would send me one of the new motors they have on the new UAV Shadow, things might start to change. _________________ "Tow me up. I'll find my way down"
Kansas City Hang Glider Supplies
Guggenmos E7
WW U2 145
WW F1 195
FlyTec 6015
CG 1000
Tracer Plus
Organ Donor
Torrey Hawk #212
Jim, was that a non-profit corporation you formed? I have no idea what it takes to form a non-profit. It may be impractical. Also, was it hard to get the loan? It's probably much harder now after the credit crisis. We're pretty close to having a partnership together.
We were a standard type "S" Corporation. Nothing special. My wife kept the books. The Partners formed a board together and I was voted in as Manager. I filed with IRS every year. Over the 5 years we existed, the final year we made a profit.....12 whole dollars.
The Corp. also protects you legally from each other and law suits from tandem passengers. It allows you to control disgruntled Partners (don't ask how I know this ) You also simply MUST have everyone including Partners sign waivers EVERY YEAR!
Can you say, "CYA?".
The loan was a simple collateral loan (Dragonfly as collateral) however we used a bank my Dad (read lawyer) had done business with. We all signed our own separate notes with the loan showing what %'s each Partner was liable for. I collected payments each month and made the deposits.
It's doable-it's WORK-it's WORTH it... _________________ "Tow me up. I'll find my way down"
Kansas City Hang Glider Supplies
Guggenmos E7
WW U2 145
WW F1 195
FlyTec 6015
CG 1000
Tracer Plus
Organ Donor
Torrey Hawk #212
Thanks, Jim. I'm still looking into non-profit. Otherwise just a plain LLC. We don't need waivers and all, the partners are real nice buddies. Just kidding.
Alternatively, there are the light part 103 trikes like the NW Maverick with a 447 that seem to be capable of towing, too. Much less expensive, but we're concerned they may be grounded on good thermal days.
Thanks again,
Holger
I've wondered about this for a long time, everyone says too heavey and under powered.
The problem as I see it is the massively heavey 2 place trike wings at 115+lbs that put it over weight. I don't see why a single place only tow trike wing or modified tandem Falcon at 71lbs can't be used to bring the weight within limits??
Some googling shows all up weights of rotax engines including gearbox and exhaust.
912 123 lbs
582 100lbs
503dc 100lbs
447 90lbs
surely a 75lbs single place trike frame could be built??
get the wing weight down to 71 lbs using a falcon tandem or beafed up falcon 195 even and what do we get??
rotax 582 100lbs
trike frame 75lbs I think this one could be built as low as 55lbs
wing 71lbs
total weight 246lbs
If every part were built and chosen for lightness it seems totally doable to me.
And a 582 powered 250lb trike should out climb a 582 daragonfly shouldn't it? Aren't they at least 375lbs or so?
Hey I'd really like to hear some opinions on whether an ultralight 582 powered tow trike is doable.
Does anyone have some knowledge and experience with trikes to comment on my above post.
So if the engine weight numbers I found and correct, shed 10 lbs off wing and trike and it could be 582 powered huh? The struts instead of cables on the maverick probably make up 7 lbs right there.
I have too little knowledge of trikes to comment on your numbers, GBX. One thing though: our little partnership is now so excited about the Dragonfly that we don't consider trikes anymore. It's a real airplane with which we can take family members up and they feel good about it. Check out this fun:
Sorry Jim, didn't want to rub it in. But hey, you had 5 years on the dance floor with her. Something to tell your grandkids about while you're looking for your misplaced dentures...
How about them waivers and partnership agreement. Any chance?
So if the engine weight numbers I found and correct, shed 10 lbs off wing and trike and it could be 582 powered huh? The struts instead of cables on the maverick probably make up 7 lbs right there.
One of the problems encountered when moving from a rotax 447 engine to the 582 is not just the increase of 15hp, but the increased torque of the 582. Structure has to be beefed up substantially to accomodate for the higher HP and torque.
Like all else, it's a series of compromises by the designer.
- Joel _________________ "Argue for your limitations and they shall be yours...."
Over this side of the pond it is all trike towing that is done as the dragonfly is not certified this side of the pond(to the best of my knowledge).
We use the P+M quantum 912 and also an old pegasus xlr 462 two stroke machine with release mechanisms fitted and certified.
The xl tows up nice and slow at around the 30 mph mark and the quantum at around the 47 mph mark the quantum climb rate is great the xl not so great ie a tow to 2 thousand feet on the 912 is around 3 to 5 minute the xl could be treble that
hope this helps _________________ HG pilot rating
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Hey Blindrodie, you sold yours, right?
)
) You also simply MUST have everyone including Partners sign waivers EVERY YEAR!
Just kidding.
Something to tell your grandkids about while you're looking for your misplaced dentures...
