Reading all these posts amazes me.How could I have been sooo blind?
I'm just some, me,me me type,or too stupid,or too lazy! Or just bad decisions,you know-like caring for my elderly widowed mother for 11 years instead of selling her for medical experiments to pay for college.
Wow! I didn't know that all of us who can't get or can't afford health care are just horrible worthless freeloaders!
I don't think many of us will stay sane if we just slog from home to our 2 or 3 jobs and do NOTHING but try and pay bills and insurance.No money for recreation allowed.Don't think thats healthy but,hey!No real income so thats all thats allowed.
I guess all of us who are uninsured had better just kill ourselves so we don't inconvenience those who do have insurance.After all,the stress of being forever out of money and working multiple jobs makes one think about the escape of death anyways...oh! wait.....who would serve the economically better off their meals when they eat out?Who would clean up their offices after hours?How would we guard their cars that cost more than my annual income out in the 105 degree heat in summer and snow in the winter while they toil away in their climate controlled cubicles?(that what one of my jobs is, protect the parking lots of folks who have great health care and wages I can only dream of.)What would happen to the insured peoples food supply without the cheap,uninsured farm labor?
Guess we can't just kill ourselves.
Hey!I know...let's just ship all people like me into labor camps.
We could put of signs over the gate that say"Areit macht frei"
At last,a "final solution" to those pesky poor people that others rely on to do the work the wealthier won't,or just don't want to do for wages low enough to ensure that inflation will not bother the better off.
Scott as Jack and JB have stated no one is saying "all people" are this or that.
But I I read your statement above I am wondering ...Do you have resentment of or in some way feel that successful people who make a lot of money don't deserve their Salaries? I ask this because there is this belief that i hear from SOME (get that), people that people who make a lot of money must have done something sleazy or taken advantage of or stole or in some way were not honorable in their work. I have seriously thought of having a Voodoo doll made of a AIG executive and selling them with a set of pins on the internet. I bet i could make as much as the guys bonus in profits selling those dolls to people who resent others and want to take it out on this doll.
Now if i did that I ask the question ....Who that not be an honorable way to make a living?
Dennis _________________ Organ Donation Saves Lives
One of the obvious faults with some participants in threads like this is that those that have "done better for themselves" repeatedly demonize the uninsured as being poor, lazy, bad planners, leaches, more likely to be unhealthy, looking for a hand out, unmotivated, etc.
This is hate mongering.
One of the "best" ways to discount universal health care is to turn everyone who would benefit from it into the least productive most negative segment of society. That way, denying these people health care is simply "what they deserve" for being such low life scum. Yea, no one's put it this way verbatim, but it's essentially the attitude that's being demonstrated.
None of you "anti-universal health care" proponents have said anything about watching that Bill Moyers PBS interview I provided a link to (the one you can watch anytime you want).
Yea it's Bill Moyers, "a socialist butt boy" (another obvious hate mongering comment) doing the interview, but it was a long term Health Insurance Corporation Executive who he was interviewing. This health care executive, on a trip back home to the rural US, stumbled on a free health care clinic (being given nearby) serving 100s of HARD WORKING rural Americans who couldn't afford health care.
This insurance executive was shocked and dumbfounded. At the same time, as head of corporate communications, he had direct knowledge of numerous memos involving Cigna's efforts to cut health insurance customers from its rolls - in order to boost profits and keep their stock prices high.
In the interview he talks about internal company communications which describe efforts to weed out (reduce health coverage and/or dramatically increase costs to) companies who's health plans were being over utilized by their employees. He explained Cigna's POLICY of intentionally eliminating (millions of) customers (yearly) who simply utilized the benefits of their paid-in-full health insurance.
As we can imagine, Cigna has very little problem with customers who stay healthy and simply pay their sizable monthly bills. Cigna makes HUGE profits (for its stockholders) as a result. And this Cigna Corporate Executive (being interviewed by the evil Bill Moyers) often traveled all over the country in one of Cigna's corporate jets - being served the best food on fancy china, with gold silverware, by cute personal flight attendants.
Yet, after witnessing, first hand, the contrast and conflict of Cigna's corporate policy of maximizing profit (which involved cutting, reducing or denying customer coverage - on a MASSIVE scale) with the rural health clinic for the uninsured (so big that it was held at the county fairgrounds) he had what could be called, an attack of conscience.
Until he actually SAW the 100s of people (in his childhood rural county home) without health coverage and realized that these same people once would have been his neighbors (in the rural area he came from) he couldn't truly appreciate the impact that FOR PROFIT Health Insurance was actually having on good, hard working, people. People who could be, who ARE OUR neighbors.
Shout down Public or Universal Health Coverage as much as you want. But until you come face to face with a neighbor (who you thought was respectable) who is really and truly SUFFERING and perhaps even DIEING for lack of adequate and/or proper health care, you can't imagine the actual impact this problem is having on good, honest, hard working people.
The least that needs to be done is serious, large scale reform and regulation of America's for-profit health insurance companies. Is even that likely to happen? Well, these companies practically own the politicians, so probably not.
Is the currently proposed government health plan going to get anywhere? Hmmmm, . . . I think if you asked any major Heath Insurance company, their response would (if they were honest) most likely be: No F*ing way!
So, SG and the rest, . . . you can rest easy (while your perhaps hidden and invisible neighbors suffer quietly from inadequate or nonexistent health care).
sg wrote:
Scott wrote:
Reading all these posts amazes me.How could I have been sooo blind?
I'm just some, me,me me type,or too stupid,or too lazy! Or just bad decisions,you know-like caring for my elderly widowed mother for 11 years instead of selling her for medical experiments to pay for college.
Wow! I didn't know that all of us who can't get or can't afford health care are just horrible worthless freeloaders!
Now just hold on.
Did anyone here say Scott made bad decisions?
Did anyone here call Scott a freeloader?
Did anyone here call Scott lazy or stupid?
No they didnt.
Lots of people fall onto hard times for many other reasons as well.
Some are simply dealt bad hands.
It still doenst make theft via government proxy moral.
Government control of the distribution of some new universal healthcare system is pure socialism by definition.
The third definition of socialism in the dictionary is:
"(in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles."
So excuse me for not wanting to take yet another step closer to communism.
One of the obvious faults with some participants in threads like this is that those that have "done better for themselves" repeatedly demonize the uninsured as being poor, lazy, bad planners, leaches, more likely to be unhealthy, looking for a hand out, unmotivated, etc.
This is hate mongering.
Actually, all I see is, those that have "done better for themselves" repeatedly demonizing the lazy, bad planners, leaches, more likely to be unhealthy looking for a hand out, unmotivated, etc, types.
The problem is, some people keep ASSUMING its them they are talking about.
Being uninsured doesnt automatically put you into this category.
Im pretty sure most people support non-welfare state creating "safety nets" for the really poor and people down on their luck. The anti-socialists just dont believe that just because you have it tough, it makes it ok to steal from someone else and give it to you.
My SO's mother died last year. She was shuffled around from excellent hospitals to mediocre hospitals because she only had medicare coverage. (Dont you love that govt run healthcare???) Could she have been saved with top healthcare? Maybe. But guess what, not once did my SO say, HEY!, someone owes ME a bunch of money so my mom can get top notch care. Where exactly does this idea come from? Is it nothing more than a simple realization that people can vote money out of other peoples pockets and get something for free?
Again.... if you want everyone covered, and all pre-existing conditions covered, it does NOT require universal/socialized healthcare. You can fix that with a single law change. Of course, it will have the effect of raising everyones premiums. Which is exactly what any govt program will do, but via taxes in additional to paying for all the new govt employees. _________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
Thomas Jefferson wrote:
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
Last edited by sg on Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:52 am; edited 1 time in total
One of the obvious faults with some participants in threads like this is that those that have "done better for themselves" repeatedly demonize the uninsured as being poor, lazy, bad planners, leaches, more likely to be unhealthy, looking for a hand out, unmotivated, etc.
No, this is you choosing to excise the part of the quotes that don't fit your position -- the parts where I say there are real cases that should have real help.
Quote:
This is hate mongering.
This is you choosing to project rather than read what is written.
Society (typically, now, run by fairly complex governments) exists to support and aid the survival of it's members. This is simply an indisputable fact.
It's easiest to see how closely this relates to the welfare of the individual, in a smaller social group. The smaller the group that you've got striving for survival, the more important the individual's health and well being becomes. Basically were talking "strength in numbers".
However, a large (or, these days, HUGE) society can function adequately while completely ignoring the health and welfare of a significant number of it's members. But does it benefit such a society to do so? I'd say, no, it doesn't. It can only reduce the productivity and effectiveness of that society.
Societies don't exist or aren't needed in an "every man for himself" situation. Once enough members of a society determine that their society no longer serves their interests, that society begins to fail. Societies can fail due to famine, disease, attack from within or without, financial collapse, and certainly a number of other reasons.
But of the most basic and fundamental ways for a society to fail, lack of food and/or health are at the top of the "must have" list. Any society that can not maintain these minimal social requirements/benefits is in serious trouble.
It's just the way it is.
If you can live (healthily) while your society fails in one of it's most basic duties, well, good for you. Maybe you'll stay lucky. But this would be one (more) indicator that our nation is headed down the tubes. But, hey, as long as the rich get richer, . . . _________________ WW 141 Fusion SP
Master rated, First flight - May 1975
FL, PL, PA, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TURB, X-C
Society (typically, now, run by fairly complex governments) exists to support and aid the survival of it's members. This is simply an indisputable fact.
It's easiest to see how closely this relates to the welfare of the individual, in a smaller social group. The smaller the group that you've got striving for survival, the more important the individual's health and well being becomes. Basically were talking "strength in numbers".
However, a large (or, these days, HUGE) society can function adequately while completely ignoring the health and welfare of a significant number of it's members. But does it benefit such a society to do so? I'd say, no, it doesn't. It can only reduce the productivity and effectiveness of that society.
Societies don't exist or aren't needed in an "every man for himself" situation. Once enough members of a society determine that their society no longer serves their interests, that society begins to fail. Societies can fail due to famine, disease, attack from within or without, financial collapse, and certainly a number of other reasons.
But of the most basic and fundamental ways for a society to fail, lack of food and/or health are at the top of the "must have" list. Any society that can not maintain these minimal social requirements/benefits is in serious trouble.
It's just the way it is.
If you can live (healthily) while your society fails in one of it's most basic duties, well, good for you. Maybe you'll stay lucky. But this would be one (more) indicator that our nation is headed down the tubes. But, hey, as long as the rich get richer, . . .
That's an interesting and though provoking video, SG. I will give you my response to it, but just now I am getting ready to pick my girlfriend up at the airport and can't spend time on it. As soon as I get a chance, I'll tell you what I think. _________________ WW 141 Fusion SP
Master rated, First flight - May 1975
FL, PL, PA, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TURB, X-C
Society (typically, now, run by fairly complex governments) exists to support and aid the survival of it's members. This is simply an indisputable fact
Span man keeps implying that robin hood mythology. Let me ask the span a question. What is my motivation for working hard and striving to be a top guy in my field if the reward is going to go into someone elses pocket that is not working and striving to the same extent as me?
If you want me to watch Moyer's I will but you must listen to a week of Rush.
Again you tell this little tale of some mean nasty insurance guy who retires and then low and behold finds himself in some bucolic town like some old Twilight Zone episode and he sees the error of his way and now is repenting like Dickinson's Scrooge and lending the Tiny Tims of the world a free check up.
Hey you want to buy a AIG Voodoo Doll? 20 bucks and it comes with 10 poison pins and three secret spells
Dennis _________________ Organ Donation Saves Lives
That's an interesting and though provoking video, SG. I will give you my response to it, but just now I am getting ready to pick my girlfriend up at the airport and can't spend time on it. As soon as I get a chance, I'll tell you what I think.
Gotta be on of my favorite videos of all time. Its implications are far reaching.
More importantly, its a philosophical cornerstone of this country, that so many americans have forgotten. _________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
Thomas Jefferson wrote:
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
That's an interesting and though provoking video, SG. I will give you my response to it, but just now I am getting ready to pick my girlfriend up at the airport and can't spend time on it. As soon as I get a chance, I'll tell you what I think.
Gotta be on of my favorite videos of all time. Its implications are far reaching.
More importantly, its a philosophical cornerstone of this country, that so many americans have forgotten.
Just watched the video... And while I'd say that fundamentally I agree with it, there are some implication that are made that most people are probably not aware of.
E.g. If we mutually agree as a society that we live in a system that we know will be imperfect, will meet the needs of most of its members, but will not meet the needs of some, then even though we may not agree with all of the decisions of our elected leaders, and even though we may get the short end of the stick at times, it's the society that we've agreed to live in. It's my choice to continue to live in the US as a US citizen, follow its laws, attempt to make it the best society I can, and attempt to do the best for myself in that society. I can choose at any time to leave this country and attempt to find a better system somewhere else. In that way, I am free, I have that liberty. Not everyone in the world can say the same, but I'm glad I live in a place where that's possible.
That said, because I'm making this choice, I have also agreed to the imperfections that are part of this society. Doesn't mean I like them, and I'm all for finding ways to change them, but the fact that I continue to choose to live in this society means that I must acknowledge them.
I'm also not stupid enough to believe that everyone realizes this... And this goes for all sides of the coin... All the extreemes and everything inbetween. _________________ H2 FL CL - Falcon3/195 - High Energy Tracer Harness
Society (typically, now, run by fairly complex governments) exists to support and aid the survival of it's members. This is simply an indisputable fact
I thought the purpose of government was to secure/defend the rights of the people. _________________ H4 :: FL FSL CL AWCL TURB RLF XC
WW Talon 140
Member of the World's Greatest HG Club!
But of the most basic and fundamental ways for a society to fail, lack of food and/or health are at the top of the "must have" list. Any society that can not maintain these minimal social requirements/benefits is in serious trouble.
It's just the way it is.
No Wing, this is just the way YOU think it is. It's merely a statement of opinion and nothing approaching fact.
Let me address the "must have" portion of your statement with a bit of a story:
I'm familiar with a young couple. She is near her mid-20s and he is a bit older. Both high school dropouts. She is very smart and very able bodied -- she is also needy, incredibly lazy and hasn't had to work an honest day in her life (let alone hold a job) -- she simply has demonstrated no interest in bettering her life through effort or discipline.
He is also smart as a whip and a very knowledgeable and practical guy with extensive practical and construction skills. This guy will work his *ass* off, always giving 100% every moment -- problem is, he demonstrates no ability to use a key element to success ... foresight. Foresight is the ability to connect the future implications of ones actions with today's decisions. He seems incapable of following through on the simplest of his promises. He can't show up to work on time. He can't call when he says he'll call. He can't follow the simplest of work rules. He also can't figure out when to tell the truth.
Early on , as I got to know him he impressed me greatly with his hard work and smarts -- I managed to get him a job that paid more than 60K per year. He blew it within just a few short weeks by breaking simple and logical work rules (involving his needy girlfriend) and even when busted cold, lying to his managers face about it. Though other channels, I've had the opportunity to get him work repeatedly since, but I just can't recommend him unless I see a change in his decision making process.
They survive by sleeping on friends couches (a shrinking list) and contributions from her Mom. He cuts firewood on friends property (sometimes mine) and sells it on Craigslist. She watches and complains about not having anything to do while he works.
Smart couple. Capable couple. Talented couple.
To those who say food and health care, provided by 'society' is a "must have" for this couple, I say "not in a society that wants to be strong". What's best for 'society' is for these kids need to experience *more* pain, not less. These kids need to feel the results of their decisions without insulation by friends and family. As long as they don't change, they need to have to dig in dumpsters and ride the bus. The road to a successful and comfortable life is merely a job application away (for her) and the addition of a bit of self discipline (for him).
Calling these capable but lazy and undisciplined kids victims of a 'weak society' because some of us don't want to pay for their existence is a huge mistake. Insulate them by making their life easier by feeding them etc. is just an encouragement.
Will I pay for an emergency appendectomy to save their life? -- yep. Do I think that having a toothache for weeks because your too lazy to get a job and pay for a trip to the dentist is a good thing - Oh, absolutely yes.
I care about these kids. I've seen such potential, that I've put large amounts of time and effort into attempting to get them on track -- I *want* them to succeed, but you can't make a horse drink.
Contrary to your position Wingspan, I hold that a strong society will say "contribute to society in the best way you can or feel the pain of your refusal to do so".
There are *a lot* of people who are just like this couple and they need to learn how to contribute, not learn how to game society.
Did you guys hear about the Cash For Clunkers program?
You trade in a old car with horrible gas mileage, buy a new one and get up to $4.500 cash from the government.
Right?
Wrong!!!
Dealers having problems to register and no checks have been cut yet to reimburse the dealers.
C'mon selbaer ... the program didn't take effect until Monday (that's right ... THIS Monday as in 2 days ago) and you're complaining that dealers haven't received their checks yet?
Geeeez. I'm no fan of government programs like that, but no need to create a post that mocks something after TWO DAYS TIME!!
I'll bet your power company doesn't have your check in hand two days after sending you the bill.
JB
Bubble Boy: big oops or didn't you see this coming keeping an eye on USPS, AMTRAK, Fanny and Freddy (GM not being in the news-yet?-...
I can see the doctors waiting on payment already or even worst you on the OK for a simple procedure?
She is near her mid-20s and he is a bit older. Both high school dropouts. She is very smart and very able bodied -- she is also needy, incredibly lazy and hasn't had to work an honest day in her life (let alone hold a job) -- she simply has demonstrated no interest in bettering her life through effort or discipline.
Just to take the devil's advocate position - one could argue that she is like this because she needs medical help. It's hard to imagine she would behave in ways that are so counterproductive to herself if she were capable of making rational decisions. That being said, I'm well aware she won't get (or accept) the help she needs - even if it's paid for.
Quote:
... and even when busted cold, lying to his managers face about it.
yes - sounds familiar This guy is willing to do the hard part (work his ass off), but can't or won't do the easy part (plan 5 minutes ahead).
Quote:
He cuts firewood on friends property (sometimes mine) and sells it on Craigslist. She watches and complains about not having anything to do while he works.
I had to bite my tongue the other day when this came up. I was going to suggest he tell her "this d*** ain't gonna suck itself".
Incidentally, just anticipating people thinking JB is too hard on these two... there could be nothing further from the truth. I've known him to go WAY out of his way in MANY ways, for both of them. But at some point they have to start pulling on the rope.
Time for a review. Tell me if you agree with this video WS.
Good video. In my opinion the best thing it can do is to remind people that they own their lives and make their own choices. I suspect most people haven't actually accepted that, and too many people live their entire lives without realizing it.
But I suspect you'd be surprised that many people would agree with almost everything in the video, and yet can't find any common ground on how to put most of it into practice. I think (at least in the U.S.) the values presented are common to most of us. How we achieve the agreed upon goals is where we differ. I imagine it's hard for most conservatives to believe liberals aren't just trying to destroy this country and everything it stands for. And I suspect the liberals think the same of the conservatives. But don't you think in real life both groups actually want what's best for the country?
To me the hard question is how exactly should a civilized society be fair? On the one hand it seems obvious that people should be able to profit from their own efforts and talents - and the government shouldn't take their money and give it to the stupid or lazy. On the other hand - consider you and me. We were both born to parents that valued education, fed us, and motivated us. We were both born with plenty of intellectual potential (and in my case am incredibly handsome ). You have to admit we were just plain dealt a better hand by fate compared to some people (not mentioning names of any slow-witted people, but his initials are JB ). Should I really get such an easy ride because of those things I DIDN'T earn for myself (my genes, upbringing, etc.)?
Ok, more devils advocate. Using the "unfair genetics" line of reasoning, should all olympic medalists be handicapped when they compete against a genetic specimen like yourself? Should we strip those gold medals and spread them around to less genetically gifted people?
Should ugly people be paid as much as super models and given the same access to all the magazine covers
Should really tall people be force to play basketball on their knees?
Life is not fair. Some people are born to great parents others to assholes.
Some people are born with high IQ's. But should they be punished for it?
Some are born with money, should it be taken away?
Is it ok to trump peoples core rights (like property rights), because they were born with some advantage?
Everyone is dealt a starting hand, and then its up to them to do something with it. But no matter what hand you're dealt, it doesn't give you the right to violate anyone else's core rights. _________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
Thomas Jefferson wrote:
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
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This guy is willing to do the hard part (work his ass off), but can't or won't do the easy part (plan 5 minutes ahead).