In light of the "flaming" events that have transpired over the course of the past few days I wanted to shed some light on debate. As a forum member, or as a person in general, you may not have ever thought analytically about debate before, so let me set out a few guidelines.
First, it's really easy to confuse "debate" vs. "argument."
When I was 12 years old I would attack my sister's Barbie doll house with my G.I. Joes. I may have thought I was playing, but she disagreed and an all out war of words would follow. When two twelve year olds get into a yelling and cursing match (slagging is a great British term for this) that is an argument. When the argument degenerates into Ad Hominem (personal, to the man) attacks, the point is lost. The argument is no longer seeking to resolve anything.
Now a debate is something completely different. I like to use the term "discursive discussion." Now, I like a good discursive discussion! As forum members we should only be involved in discursive discussions (not arguments) and no matter how passionate you might be about issues, your "feelings" (about the person specifically) should be left out of it.
If you feel flustered take a moment to say to yourself "this is a discursive discussion, not an argument."
So here's a few things to remember:
- Criticism is good. Criticism is a peer review process that allows for honest improvement in all of us. So long as the criticism remains targeted at the topic (landings for example) no criticism is too harsh. We've always heard about constructive criticism, and that is the goal here.
- When being critiqued, remember that the criticism is being directed at the topic, not you personally, and that you should feel open about continuing the discussion. DON'T TAKE IT PERSONALLY.
- When critiquing, DON'T MAKE PERSONAL ATTACKS. It devalues your position. Your opinions become tainted and less valuable to others on the forum. It's also a waste of time for other forum members. When I read educational threads (let's use a landing thread again as the example) it's a waste of my time to read two knuckle heads having a tweetle beetle paddle battle. I really just want to learn more about the topic.
A short while back I posted a thread containing one of my own, less than perfect, launches. Someone made the comment "you are a brave man showing us your take off ,Thanks i hope you have thick skin ."
If I stick to the rules of debate, rather than argument, I don't need to have thick skin. I checked my feelings at the door and I open myself up to good discussion. When (or if) the discussion turns nasty I immediately offer an olive branch of friendship and try my best to return to the topic. Again... leave the feelings at the door.
As a the giver or receiver criticism, keep a cool head and an open mind.
And one final thought. Humans are tribal animals. As such we fall prey to ethnocentrism. Meaning, my group is always better than your group.
- Because I'm a hang glider pilot, I feel that I'm better than ALL paraglider pilots.
- Because I love single surface gliders, I feel that my glider is better than ALL double surface gliders.
- Because I use a cocoon harness, I feel that my harness is better than ALL pod harnesses.
- Etc.
This essential human flaw is everywhere:
- East coast vs. west coast.
- American league vs National league
- Christianity vs Islam
- Tutsi vs Hutu
- Etc.
So keep this little kernel of thought in your head as you debate...
You are a human. You suffer from ethnocentrism. You might think you are right and debate to that effect with great vigor. But keep an open mind about the fact that you may be wrong.
And at that moment that you realize that you were wrong, and you embrace the other person's position...
...that's call learning. _________________ H3 ('02), F3-195 called "Floyd"
Past: F2 225, Falcon 3 195, U2 160
Spoken like a true Atheist / Skeptic / Libertarian!
...But, how dare you bring logic and reasoning to the forums! This is the internet for fcks sake! Bring on the lolcats and fail posters! _________________ -Dave
http://www.designbydave.net/
OMFG!!!!! C'mon NME. How can you leave this forum?!?!?!?!?! _________________ H-3 FL CL AWCL FSL RLF TUR
Region 9 Observer
WW U2 145
Watch my HG Videos
Oh, the cats out of the bag now. Dave, Owen and I have a little atheist, secular humanist, skeptic, science geek, free thinker club going on at Crestline... only it's not a club, and we don't even have a cool hand shake or secret meetings. _________________ H3 ('02), F3-195 called "Floyd"
Past: F2 225, Falcon 3 195, U2 160
Pretty sure I've "outed" myself as an atheist on these boards on more than one occasion.
But getting somewhat back to the topic, its fascinating and raveling to learn how our f-ed up brains work. You brought up tribalism as a good example. Another (which has nothing to do with anything going on in these boards, I just find it fascinating) is how our brains are very good at recognizing faces.
One skill that just about every human has is the ability to distinguish different faces from one another. There are about 6.5 billion people on earth and we all can just about distinguish between each of them. Think about it, next time you are out in public look at faces, everyone looks unique.
It is interesting to note that this skill only applies to other humans. We can not distinguish between faces of different animals. All monkeys pretty much look the same right? (Except Lobido.)
Pretty easy to understand how this skill evolved in us as we are such social animals. Its essential for us to be able to tell one another apart by looks.
What does this have to do with skepticism? Well its a pretty damn good explanation for those people that think they are seeing Jesus' face in a wood door, or the Virgin Mary in a grilled cheese sandwich. Think about how we are always seeing an eye, nose or face in the clouds, a pile of leaves or some other random assortment of objects. Its not that there is a face there, its that your brain is predisposed to seeing faces and will "draw" a face where there is really just a random assortment of junk.
That phenomena, grilled cheese virgin marys, is called pareidolia. _________________ H3 ('02), F3-195 called "Floyd"
Past: F2 225, Falcon 3 195, U2 160
Oh, the cats out of the bag now. Dave, Owen and I have a little atheist, secular humanist, skeptic, science geek, free thinker club going on at Crestline... only it's not a club, and we don't even have a cool hand shake or secret meetings.
Damn. I'm always the last to know about these things. How do I join?
ooops, did I say damn?
And one final thought. Humans are tribal animals. As such we fall prey to ethnocentrism. Meaning, my group is always better than your group.
- Because I'm a hang glider pilot, I feel that I'm better than ALL paraglider pilots.
- Because I love single surface gliders, I feel that my glider is better than ALL double surface gliders.
- Because I use a cocoon harness, I feel that my harness is better than ALL pod harnesses.
- Etc.
This essential human flaw is everywhere:
- East coast vs. west coast.
- American league vs National league
- Christianity vs Islam
- Tutsi vs Hutu
- Etc.
HG pilots are different somehow. Im really into brazilian jiu jitsu and run another forum for my other hobby. If I randomly polled a bunch of people on the street and asked them the question:
"In which online community would you expect more arguments and issues, a hang gliding community or a brazilian jiu jitsu, mixed martial arts community?"
I bet most people would say jiu jitsu. After all, its mostly young, hyper-agro, testosterone driven athletes who like to fight.
...and they would be wrong
HG pilots seem to be more about ME, hyper-individualistic. The jiu jitsu guys seem to be team mates, because of the bond their share.
It may have something to do with the fact that in jiu jitsu, you get your ass kicked so much for the first 6 months that you literally have every little bit of ego beat out of you. "tapping out" and admitting defeat is a daily event in jiu jitsu class. People with ego wash out of jiu jitsu pretty quickly. That mechanism doesnt exist in HG. _________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
Thomas Jefferson wrote:
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
HG pilots seem to be more about ME, hyper-individualistic. The jiu jitsu guys seem to be team mates, because of the bond their share.
It may have something to do with the fact that in jiu jitsu, you get your ass kicked so much for the first 6 months that you literally have every little bit of ego beat out of you. "tapping out" and admitting defeat is a daily event in jiu jitsu class. People with ego wash out of jiu jitsu pretty quickly. That mechanism doesnt exist in HG.
Well thats something to think about.Which will just generate more questions in my nerdy skull.
I'm always impressed with the great respect and humility shown by Grand Masters to even the newest white belt.
The masters of hang gliding have always been willing and sometimes even eager to help low times guys like me.
I suppose we have to be a little self assured to run off a cliff and if we make a mistake the earth spanks us but when training in the arts we may get stomped many times a day and the ones who whoops us may range from a litttle kid to an 80 year old man.
It now makes me think of some more questions....are a lot of us pilots also martial artists?Do the two disciplines attract the same kind of people?
Oh, the cats out of the bag now. Dave, Owen and I have a little atheist, secular humanist, skeptic, science geek, free thinker club going on at Crestline... only it's not a club, and we don't even have a cool hand shake or secret meetings.
The irony is, I know more about your religious, or anti, beliefs than I do of any other members... and mind you, I didn't ask. You guys aren't going door to door any time soon, are you?
Oh, the cats out of the bag now. Dave, Owen and I have a little atheist, secular humanist, skeptic, science geek, free thinker club going on at Crestline... only it's not a club, and we don't even have a cool hand shake or secret meetings.
The irony is, I know more about your religious, or anti, beliefs than I do of any other members... and mind you, I didn't ask. You guys aren't going door to door any time soon, are you?
I can't speak for others but sometimes I really feel that I need to be clear about my disbelief. In this country, everyone just assumes you are a Christian.
But, er um, Atheists are far to lazy for door-to-door, we stick to online message boards and podcasts _________________ -Dave
http://www.designbydave.net/
Damn. I'm always the last to know about these things. How do I join?
Well Rob, You're going to have to work your way up from the bottom.
First you have to spot land an old Sport on the roof of Owen's property, while flying drunk. Then you have to set up an approach while flying with your feet on the base tube, then flare only using the rear wires. Then spend the rest of the evening telling off color jokes.
It's easier than you think really... _________________ H3 ('02), F3-195 called "Floyd"
Past: F2 225, Falcon 3 195, U2 160
Unanswered
Highest rated...
Topics
Damn. I'm always the last to know about these things. How do I join?
"tapping out" and admitting defeat is a daily event in jiu jitsu class. People with ego wash out of jiu jitsu pretty quickly. That mechanism doesnt exist in HG.