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Nibs
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #21   
Holger wrote:
sg wrote:
So I hate to just guess without talking to Linda and getting the details from her.

Exactly. Linda is on this forum as gottafly. Speedy recovery, Linda!

BTW: SPOT or something like it would have come in handy. Press on the HELP or 911 button and wait for the crew.


Please don't misunderstand anything I have said as attacking Linda or second guessing and don't confuse my comments or statements with those that others have made. But with the information we have, I think its perfectly acceptable to have a discussion as to what could have contributed to the accident so that we can all learn from it. That is my only purpose in stating what I have, and is why I put the question out there. Even if we "second guess" or make assumptions, its ok because the goal is to learn about what COULD happen (whether or not it actually is what happened in Linda's case) so we can learn, not blame or criticize the injured pilot.

Noman, you make a good point. I completely forgot about one time two years ago that I hit rotor so bad I was literally unable to control my glider no matter what I did. I was along for the ride until about 100' off the deck. I felt very lucky. The rotor came off a foothill that was quite a ways upwind of the only LZ reachable from launch if no lift is found. I won't fly that site anymore.
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #22   
Oops, it was KK who made the point about rotor.
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #23   
Nibs wrote:
Please don't misunderstand anything I have said as attacking Linda or second guessing and don't confuse my comments or statements with those that others have made. But with the information we have, I think its perfectly acceptable to have a discussion as to what could have contributed to the accident so that we can all learn from it.

That's fine. Still - I wish we wouldn't have started this discussion under this thread's title with her name in it. Especially since she's one of this forum's members and may not have the opportunity right now to defend her case. It is one thing if she writes "Overconfidence might have been my copilotů. and Complacency my back seat driverů." and yet another to state it as a fact for her in a public forum.

Holger
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #24   
Read first hand on her blog guys!

http://gottafly.blogspot.com/

She says she was in pain on meds typing with two fingers etc. but she got it out...

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #25   
Nibs wrote:
Holger wrote:
sg wrote:
So I hate to just guess without talking to Linda and getting the details from her.

Exactly. Linda is on this forum as gottafly. Speedy recovery, Linda!

BTW: SPOT or something like it would have come in handy. Press on the HELP or 911 button and wait for the crew.


Please don't misunderstand anything I have said as attacking Linda or second guessing and don't confuse my comments or statements with those that others have made. But with the information we have, I think its perfectly acceptable to have a discussion as to what could have contributed to the accident so that we can all learn from it. That is my only purpose in stating what I have, and is why I put the question out there. Even if we "second guess" or make assumptions, its ok because the goal is to learn about what COULD happen (whether or not it actually is what happened in Linda's case) so we can learn, not blame or criticize the injured pilot.

Noman, you make a good point. I completely forgot about one time two years ago that I hit rotor so bad I was literally unable to control my glider no matter what I did. I was along for the ride until about 100' off the deck. I felt very lucky. The rotor came off a foothill that was quite a ways upwind of the only LZ reachable from launch if no lift is found. I won't fly that site anymore.



You know....after years of reading hundreds of comments analyzing something that no one actually saw and just imaging a set of circumstances I conclude that is does not do anyone any good to to hypothetically draw any conclusions on this stuff. I tell you one thing...I am certainly going to think twice before i share any incidents on this board. It like going to a roast.

Dennis

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #26   
Holger wrote:
That's fine. Still - I wish we wouldn't have started this discussion under this thread's title with her name in it.


NO argument from me there! Which is why I laughed at Steve's comment. I agree that if we continue to discuss what could cause this kind of accident, it should probably be under another thread.
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #27   
HGXC wrote:
Nibs wrote:
Holger wrote:
sg wrote:
So I hate to just guess without talking to Linda and getting the details from her.

Exactly. Linda is on this forum as gottafly. Speedy recovery, Linda!

BTW: SPOT or something like it would have come in handy. Press on the HELP or 911 button and wait for the crew.


Please don't misunderstand anything I have said as attacking Linda or second guessing and don't confuse my comments or statements with those that others have made. But with the information we have, I think its perfectly acceptable to have a discussion as to what could have contributed to the accident so that we can all learn from it. That is my only purpose in stating what I have, and is why I put the question out there. Even if we "second guess" or make assumptions, its ok because the goal is to learn about what COULD happen (whether or not it actually is what happened in Linda's case) so we can learn, not blame or criticize the injured pilot.

Noman, you make a good point. I completely forgot about one time two years ago that I hit rotor so bad I was literally unable to control my glider no matter what I did. I was along for the ride until about 100' off the deck. I felt very lucky. The rotor came off a foothill that was quite a ways upwind of the only LZ reachable from launch if no lift is found. I won't fly that site anymore.



You know....after years of reading hundreds of comments analyzing something that no one actually saw and just imaging a set of circumstances I conclude that is does not do anyone any good to to hypothetically draw any conclusions on this stuff. I tell you one thing...I am certainly going to think twice before i share any incidents on this board. It like going to a roast.

Dennis


OK, now I'm starting to get a little bothered. You are the second person that has chosen to quote ME in a reply that seemingly complains about the attacking attitude that some have had in this thread, when I in no way attacked Linda or anyone else. Perhaps I'm being oversensitive here and I apologize if that's the case but I don't want to be thrown under the bus and blamed for something that I'm not doing.

As for analyzing and drawing conclusions not helping, I completely disagree with you. If the point isn't to blame Linda or figure out EXACTLY what happened to her or what she did wrong... and is instead to discuss things like, "What could cause you to not be able to complete a 90 degree turn while on approach", because we do know that DID happen to her, then you tell me how people can't benefit from that discussion???

I know what you mean about feeling roasted Dennis, because that's basically what you just did to me.
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #28   
Nibs, I didn't mean to point the finger at you, if you counted my quote as first. I do see a value in making up a hypothetical situation and discussing how to best react.
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #29   
I know Holger, we are on the same page. I fully agreed with your reply.
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #30   
HGXC wrote:

You know....after years of reading hundreds of comments analyzing something that no one actually saw and just imaging a set of circumstances I conclude that is does not do anyone any good to to hypothetically draw any conclusions on this stuff. I tell you one thing...I am certainly going to think twice before i share any incidents on this board. It like going to a roast.

Dennis


That's why I didn't write up said rotor flight. I thought about it for the lessons I could share, but I just didn't want that level of second guessing and backseat driving. Believe me, I know I F*ed up, I got it on video.

The two top lessons of that flight were:
- Don't pay too much attention to the other pilots (fly your own flight)
- Always know the wind and your next LZ
... okay, that's three.
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #31   
Quote:
- Don't pay too much attention to the other pilots (fly your own flight)
-


That is the best adviced I have seen!!!

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edit: I should add it does not really apply to this thread but awesome advice nonetheless KK. Wink

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #32   
Thank goodness this wasn't worse than it was. Speedy healing to Linda!
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #33   
Quote:
I know what you mean about feeling roasted Dennis, because that's basically what you just did to me.


How is that roasting you? You're kidding right?

My point is if you weren't flying the glider or in direct view of the glider you have nothing to discuss. I have been flying over 35 years and during that time i have been thru tons of mishaps and mistakes. Do you think I knew what went wrong in half of them? 25% of them?

So how does a forum poster know? Bottle grip, grapevine...nose too high too low pull in push out I hear it all the time and I can't figure out how anyone knows what to do if they are not actually flying the glider and feeling the airs response to the wing.

Then you have an accident (by a top competitor) and the lower ranking pilots put out the most posts on what the person should have done.

I am not saying a higher ranked pilot is infallible or should never be questioned, but doesn't it take a deeper understanding to ascertain what went wrong then a couple years and a H2?

Than another H2 reads the comments and may take that as Gospel.

Case in point ....Landing a RW. Now I admit I suck at landings, i do and I know a few of the reasons why and hopefully i am on the road to correcting them. But landing my glider is a different deal then a falcon and what you can do on a falcon would not be helpful on a RW. When I needed advice I went to Ryan Voight because he is an instructor(and son of a great instructor) has great form and glider control, and can land a glider using many Techniques.

He was very helpful (aside from breaking the ankle Mr. Green ), My solution has a lot to do with speed control and timing because my wing lands faster the a flex and with flaps the ground comes up quick. Its hard to make a save with a heavy wing, little room for error. Now i can land a Falcon all day, but for me it doesn't transfer to the RW.

Having a town hall meeting on this forum will not be helpful and may end up misleading another RW pilot with the same problem.

That is what i meant and it was not to cast any dispersions at you.

Dennis

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #34   
Linda wrote up the account to share the experience in the hope that others will gain something that may help them in the future. I don't think she will feel attacked for what has been written here, it's natural to analyize and speculate.

I was flying the same day and landed a few minutes after hearing on the radio that she was in trouble.

To help fill in some of the blanks, the wind was low when the towing started, but I had to come in for a relight and it was getting windier. When I landed the second time it was blowing 15mph and quite active during the entire approach even though I was landing back at the airport which had unobstructed airflow..

The field Linda tried to harvest peanuts in was smaller than the primary field she had picked out but still large enough to be considered quite reasonable. There was a tree line that certainly added some mechanical mixing to the air and it is quite possible that a thermal was just kicking off. I don't know if we've decided for sure about the VG setting, I forgot to ask the guy that broke down her glider if he remembers the setting but will do so.

I believe a key thing to come out of this thread is how to make your location known if you are downed and what options you have as someone looking for a lost pilot. It was pretty tense for an hour or so while we were looking for her. I'd prefer not to have to go through that again. (I don't think Linda does either, she's kinda pissed about missing some good flying on the last two days).

Cheers,
Mark
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #35   
tiger12 wrote:
I believe a key thing to come out of this thread is how to make your location known if you are downed and what options you have as someone looking for a lost pilot. It was pretty tense for an hour or so while we were looking for her. I'd prefer not to have to go through that again. (I don't think Linda does either, she's kinda pissed about missing some good flying on the last two days).

As mentioned before, for me the answer currently is to take a SPOT unit with me. It sends out my track while I'm enroute and that track can be viewed on the Internet. If I land out and need help I can press the "HELP" button, which notifies the contacts I've entered online. Emails and phone messages are sent out with my current geo location. If I press the "911" button it goes to my contacts AND SAR (search&rescue). If I'm knocked unconscious I can't send out a distress message, but as soon as I'm overdue checking in they can view my track and see where it ends - should be where I'm at.

Remember the recent case of an American poet who got lost at a volcano in Japan's back country? For $250 he would probably still be alive.

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #36   
Dennis,

Linda doesn't fly a rigid wing. She flies a topless Moyes product, probably a 137 or 147 Litespeed S or RS(?).

Linda's been active on our local list so I know she can use a key board. The accident occurred on or before 5/7, a week ago. Were I in her place, would I want to participate in this discussion? Probably not - or not right away, at least.

Even still, I do think a discussion of this issue is important. Linda may or may not, at some point, become available to discuss it - if or when she feels up to it. It could be she just doesn't want to discuss it beyond what she's already put up on her blog.

But, until Linda enters the discussion, why not analyze the events described first hand in her own write up of the incident?

Reading various thoughts on how ANY pilot might have dealt with the situation, as written up, is valid.

I'll begin being REALLY worried about hang glider pilots when they STOP discussing other pilot's accidents.

Aviation should be treated like a science. Thinking you shouldn't investigate something because somebody (the accident victim?) might be embarrassed or slighted is just foolish. Learn what you can from what you know - and/or even your best guesses. That is the best way towards the goal of keeping ALL of us a little bit safer.

So, yes, I say discuss away - forget emotional BS or the possibility someone might be offended. This sport can injure or kill people. Anyone who thinks the possibility of embarrassment is a good reason to not discuss an incident (even getting possible solutions wrong), is oblivious to the importance of the goal of increasing the safety of ALL pilots - by way of FREE and OPEN discussion.

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #37   
Nibs wrote:

Noman, you make a good point. I completely forgot about one time two years ago that I hit rotor so bad I was literally unable to control my glider no matter what I did. I was along for the ride until about 100' off the deck. I felt very lucky. The rotor came off a foothill that was quite a ways upwind of the only LZ reachable from launch if no lift is found. I won't fly that site anymore.


Pigeon?


And i think people are getting a little bent out of shape over the speculation. Yes, it's all speculative but if anything good can come out of an accident then it would be the discussion about the possible causes, and what might could have been done to prevent it from happening, so that newbies like me can think about things that we may not have otherwise. I think this is true whether or not any of the different speculations are accurate. Multiple possible causes just raises awareness of multiple dangers to consider in our flying.

I can't speak for the pilot of course but I would hope that she can see the positive side of these discussions and not take it as a personal attack on her skill. Again, I can't speak for her mindset then or now but the fact that she wrote her story in her blog and used the words she did tells me that she realizes mistakes of some sort were made and that she has the balls to admit it. Kudos to Linda for sharing her experience so that we may all learn.

She is a member here so hopefully, once she feels up to it, she'll come around and clarify what actually happened to her but in the meantime discussions of any and all of the possilities can be fruitful to the community as a whole.

I hope Linda can realize that and not take it personally or be offended by any questions raised or comments made here. i know for a fact that me nor Nibs intended to offend. And I think I can speak for all here if I apologize for the group for any unintended insult.

Heel quick Linda and please know you are among friends and family here, and we care.
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 3:06 pm    Post subject: the title Reply with quote #38   
hey he got that right from what i wrote on my blog- i said that complacency and overconfidence almost killed me but even when tiger12 told me about this thread i was surprised at the the way it sounded. i was totally wasted on pain meds when i wrote it but the next morning i was satisfied that it was all pretty accurate.
i probably had my vg on. i don't recall letting it off. the glider is very stiff with it on. i was in search mode and not ready to give up i guess. the field itself was big, just it was further and i was lower and unable to really set up a good approach. i have had less than stellar landings lately but 'getting away' with them, so that's pretty much the complacency factor. overconfidence- damn, i thought i was gonna get back up again!!!
today i got my 25 staples out, the splint is off and i am typing with both hands. it sucks getting injured this early in spring... but that means i'll be flying before the end of the season. that is, if my subconscious mind allows the rest of me to do it.
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 3:12 pm    Post subject: oh, and.... Reply with quote #39   
..... i am pretty much 'un-offenable' and nothing here would even come close to it. thanks for all the input and well-wishes. Smile
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #40   
HGXC wrote:
Quote:
I know what you mean about feeling roasted Dennis, because that's basically what you just did to me.


How is that roasting you? You're kidding right?

My point is if you weren't flying the glider or in direct view of the glider you have nothing to discuss. I have been flying over 35 years and during that time i have been thru tons of mishaps and mistakes. Do you think I knew what went wrong in half of them? 25% of them?

So how does a forum poster know? Bottle grip, grapevine...nose too high too low pull in push out I hear it all the time and I can't figure out how anyone knows what to do if they are not actually flying the glider and feeling the airs response to the wing.

Then you have an accident (by a top competitor) and the lower ranking pilots put out the most posts on what the person should have done.

I am not saying a higher ranked pilot is infallible or should never be questioned, but doesn't it take a deeper understanding to ascertain what went wrong then a couple years and a H2?

Than another H2 reads the comments and may take that as Gospel.

Case in point ....Landing a RW. Now I admit I suck at landings, i do and I know a few of the reasons why and hopefully i am on the road to correcting them. But landing my glider is a different deal then a falcon and what you can do on a falcon would not be helpful on a RW. When I needed advice I went to Ryan Voight because he is an instructor(and son of a great instructor) has great form and glider control, and can land a glider using many Techniques.

He was very helpful (aside from breaking the ankle Mr. Green ), My solution has a lot to do with speed control and timing because my wing lands faster the a flex and with flaps the ground comes up quick. Its hard to make a save with a heavy wing, little room for error. Now i can land a Falcon all day, but for me it doesn't transfer to the RW.

Having a town hall meeting on this forum will not be helpful and may end up misleading another RW pilot with the same problem.

That is what i meant and it was not to cast any dispersions at you.

Dennis


Dennis, when you quote something someone writes, and then respond below that quote, it communicates that you are responding specifically to the individual you quoted. That is the whole purpose of the quote feature; you are singling out something someONE said. In this case, you chose me. You then responded with two comments; one about how the conversation is of no value and one about how people on this board like to flame people for accidents or accident stories. Since you replied specifically to what I said, and then made the comment about flaming, it implies that I am flaming Linda which is not the case. That is what I was trying to communicate to you.

HGXC wrote:
My point is if you weren't flying the glider or in direct view of the glider you have nothing to discuss


And I still totally disagree with this opinion. I don't know enough about Linda's accident to discuss it specifically. What I DO know is that there were a lot of variables that could have contributed to her accident, and the first one that stood out to ME was that SHE said she was on base, tried to make a 90 degree left turn, and was unable to do so when her wing mysteriously turned right instead. She didn't say why this happened. She may never know. We may never know.

My point in discussing this specific happening was to generate a complete list of all possible circumstances that could cause a wing to turn right when the pilot attempted to make it turn left on approach. At first, I thought airspeed was the only thing but after some discussion here, I realize that having a tight VG setting, or rotor could cause it as well. These are things I knew (and even experienced as I mentioned) but didn't think about. One of these reasons could have been responsible for what happened to Linda, but it doesn't matter! The point is for people to say, "Hey, someone got into an accident. I really don't want that to happen to me. Since we don't know all the details, lets not blame or accuse the poor injured pilot, but lets take what we do know about the incident, and see if we can determine how to prevent those things from happening to us so we learn from this, regardless of whether or not this is exactly what happened to Linda." How on earth can you argue that this isn't valid or helpful to discuss? In fact, just the other day a pilot posted a question about, "how fast should I fly my approaches." The discussion I was trying to foster could have demonstrated what can happen to you when you fly too slow on approach. Not to say that is what happened to Linda, but again, it doesn't matter if it did or didn't happen to her. That is not the point.


HGXC wrote:
Then you have an accident (by a top competitor) and the lower ranking pilots put out the most posts on what the person should have done.


I didn't do that. Again, my input was not about what she should have done, but an open discussion about what could have caused one specific aspect of the accident. But yes, people of all skill levels are going to give their input and there is nothing you or anyone else can do about it. That kind of thing happens on every internet message board out there. People have to read the info, consider the sources, and ask their instructor.

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